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Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

theguardian.com

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Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#181

Post by smtddr »

samstave wrote: post #156
bostonpete wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comments like "We are 100% completely corrupt", "Every single thing that the US stood for has literally been murdered", and "America is dead" are so absurdly over the top that they undercut your message and turn off people who might otherwise be receptive to your comments.

While I am sure you are correct, I can't help that this is how I actually feel. The entire concept of "America", for me, has completely dissolved. The sad part is I now even have difficulty with the term "legal". All meaning from these terms has been removed. We live in an illusion. The actual reality we live in is a simple binary relationship: The haves. The have-nots. Those who have power (money) do literally anyth…

So, I understand where you're coming from. At this point it feels like we should all just pick up our guns, go to the whitehouse and let them really know how we feel. But, there's still hope without that extreme. US History has shown other, more hopeless, situations eventually being fixed. In pretty much all the cases, it took awakening the masses for the change to come about. As powerful as the NSA & USgov seem to be, one thing can destroy it all - awakening the public. Also, the NSA/USgov is playing on our home-turf. Technology & internet is not something they hold an advantage above us on. One slip up on their part, or one good idea on an activist's part, and the masses could wake up and the NSA would fall to pieces in the course of a month or 2. Don't give up, just keep talking about it to anyone who will listen. Keep on increasing the probability of another Snowden. My family doesn't really care or fallow this NSA-stuff, but they have heard of it and it decreased their trust in the government. That's good enough. Just keep decreasing trust in USgov; increase probability of "A wild Snowden suddenly appears!". Eventually, something dramatic will happen and this whole thing will reach a conclusion. I can't say what that conclusion will be though... but it'll happen, it'll be spectacular... and then we'll all know where we stand after the dust clears.

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#182

Post by cleaver »

rayiner wrote: post #167
samstave wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> HN seems happy to point out that more people die from furniture than terrorism, but yet unwilling to correct people with similarly misguided opinions when it comes to this. This logic is broken. While more people may die from furniture than terrorism, what the NSA is doing is ensure that ZERO people are free. Period. You are not free when you simpl cannot communicate with another human being via electronic means wi…

> You are not free when you simpl cannot communicate with another human being via electronic means without the government's ability to actually be party to that comm. That's reading a whole lot into the definition of "free." Were people "free" in 1950? If so, how do they become "not free" by introducing a new form of communication (created by the military, mind you) that is monitored more heavily than the ones they u…

Warrantless surveillance certainly happened in 1950, but there did not exist the means by which data about almost everyone could be vacuumed up and correlated. It's entirely feasible to have an intelligence file on the majority of US citizens. In 1950, you would have to be in some way exceptional to have a file with the FBI.

Aside from the technology aspect, there was no Patriot Act and it would at the very least be difficult to detain citizens long term without charges. Sounds less free to me.

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#183

Post by acqq »

Shivetya wrote: post #124
anologwintermut wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While the NSA stuff is really bad, what Groklaw is doing is absurd and should be called such.HN seems happy to point out that more people die from furniture than terrorism, but yet unwilling to correct people with similarly misguided opinions when it comes to this. 1)Groklaw doesnt' depend on anonymous tips. The site could simply put up a huge disclosure statement on a web form that THE NSA might get what you say. Or…

1) there was a claim by her that some sources are anonymous 2) always leave avenues of information open 3) Who is the press? Congress currently is trying to define who is the press and who is not. They seem to forget the 1st applies mentions speech and press separately. As for the PGP key, I am quite sure when they want it a FISA court will force you to give them your private key and not to say that you did. The gove…

The new laws (I don't know how far they went?) that would declare bloggers "not the press" and under which bloggers lose even now debatable protection, together with the total collection of communication is really a good thing to make any blogger involved in controversies reconsider his future activity.

Still I don't believe that the NSA activity is directly what moved PJ. We know that they give tips to other agencies from time to time but it's still FBI who's in charge for the things inside of the US.

I remember that PJ already attempted to stop contributing directly to Groklaw. Now she really "closes the shop."

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#184

Post by hyperventilator »

samstave wrote: post #139
anologwintermut wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While the NSA stuff is really bad, what Groklaw is doing is absurd and should be called such.HN seems happy to point out that more people die from furniture than terrorism, but yet unwilling to correct people with similarly misguided opinions when it comes to this. 1)Groklaw doesnt' depend on anonymous tips. The site could simply put up a huge disclosure statement on a web form that THE NSA might get what you say. Or…

> HN seems happy to point out that more people die from furniture than terrorism, but yet unwilling to correct people with similarly misguided opinions when it comes to this. This logic is broken. While more people may die from furniture than terrorism, what the NSA is doing is ensure that ZERO people are free. Period. You are not free when you simpl cannot communicate with another human being via electronic means wi…

You drastically overestimate the government. The US gov can be taken down from the inside if the people want to. They don't want to. Every human alive today has more power at their fingertips than a King a hundred years ago, but go ahead and believe that this is the worst it has ever been, it is a popular fantasy.

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#185

Post by anigbrowl »

alan_cx wrote: post #30

I hope those who treated me with scorn for suggesting the politicians and business people are effectively blackmailed by the mere existence of NSA type spying can now see it for real. No direct threat, not conversation, no deals. Just the fear of the knowledge that one is being comprehensively watched, and what "they" might have. This fear is enough to alter behavior, to conform. Again, at what stage can we describe…

Jones has shut down Groklaw before, in 2011. IT's her choice to make but I don't buy her reasoning, and I certainly don't think it supports your claim of blackmail.

Again, at what stage can we describe the US and UK, and their co-conspirators as fascist, police state, oppressive, and so on?

Well, don't let me stop you since you're obviously aching to do so to bring some excitement into your life. I stand by my opposing view that people today generally enjoy far more freedom than in the past, even as recently as in the cold war.

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#186

Post by samstave »

hyperventilator wrote: post #184
samstave wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> HN seems happy to point out that more people die from furniture than terrorism, but yet unwilling to correct people with similarly misguided opinions when it comes to this. This logic is broken. While more people may die from furniture than terrorism, what the NSA is doing is ensure that ZERO people are free. Period. You are not free when you simpl cannot communicate with another human being via electronic means wi…

You drastically overestimate the government. The US gov can be taken down from the inside if the people want to. They don't want to. Every human alive today has more power at their fingertips than a King a hundred years ago, but go ahead and believe that this is the worst it has ever been, it is a popular fantasy.

Actually I am in no way saying it is the worst it has ever been.

I am saying that we are making zero progress as a species toward a free reality, and this is unacceptable.

Just because this version of America is "better than any other place" doesn't mean it is good.

I refuse to accept such apologistic BS.

Yeah it was worse. It is still bad and that is simply not acceptable.

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#187

Post by anigbrowl »

samstave wrote: post #156
bostonpete wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comments like "We are 100% completely corrupt", "Every single thing that the US stood for has literally been murdered", and "America is dead" are so absurdly over the top that they undercut your message and turn off people who might otherwise be receptive to your comments.

While I am sure you are correct, I can't help that this is how I actually feel. The entire concept of "America", for me, has completely dissolved. The sad part is I now even have difficulty with the term "legal". All meaning from these terms has been removed. We live in an illusion. The actual reality we live in is a simple binary relationship: The haves. The have-nots. Those who have power (money) do literally anyth…

also know that I am actually having difficulty with the reality of the world we live in.

I think your assessment of the world is significantly inaccurate.

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#188

Post by EthanHeilman »

rayiner wrote: post #167
samstave wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> HN seems happy to point out that more people die from furniture than terrorism, but yet unwilling to correct people with similarly misguided opinions when it comes to this. This logic is broken. While more people may die from furniture than terrorism, what the NSA is doing is ensure that ZERO people are free. Period. You are not free when you simpl cannot communicate with another human being via electronic means wi…

> You are not free when you simpl cannot communicate with another human being via electronic means without the government's ability to actually be party to that comm. That's reading a whole lot into the definition of "free." Were people "free" in 1950? If so, how do they become "not free" by introducing a new form of communication (created by the military, mind you) that is monitored more heavily than the ones they u…

Electric communication has existed for 1837 with telegraphs, but really it is not a question of technology (means) but rather the ability to easily communicate with arbitrary people without overly board effective spying (ends). That is, this argument works as well for mail as it does for email, but the parameters are different.

G = Percent of people that the government can spy on for a form of communication (0-1 where 1 is everyone, 0 is no one).

D = Percent of personal data that gets sent using that form of communication (0-1 where 1 is everyone, 0 is no one).

G * D = Freedom Lost.

Using made up but reasonable numbers

Mail = 0.05 * 0.001 = 0.00005

Email = 0.4 * 0.99 = 0.396

Historically mail was used for almost all personal data but the capability to spy on mail was far lower (d= 0.8, G = 0.000001). As time increases communication privacy goes to zero (since both G and D will increase as an average over all means), unless, of course, the trend changes.

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#189

Post by samstave »

hyperventilator wrote: post #133
s_q_b wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the most bizarre part. First, Snowden steals his information from a Microsoft Sharepoint server? What are classified documents doing on a Sharepoint server? What is a Sharepoint server doing inside the network boundary at NSA? Next, they blew the recovery. If they negotiated with Snowden when he was in Hong Kong, they could have had him stand trial in Hawaii and won easily. Or alternatively, they could have do…

Virtually everything run by the government is to some extent botched. I can't think of a single department that is run properly, yet so many people claim the NSA knows everything. Sure they do.

You're missing the point and actually reinforcing the issue against the NSA: The NSA is already botching the whole damn thing - but WHAT they are botching is the fact that they alreday setup the infra to slurp all data. They farked up setting up controls that would prevent something like Snowden (thankfully) and what we are seeing is that they took IMMENSE technical power and are using it against everyone - the fact that they botched up the human aspect is, as you imply, inevitable. But they still have succeeded in getting the infra in place.

Re: Groklaw legal site shuts over fears of NSA email snooping

#190

Post by superuser2 »

dragonwriter wrote: post #143
superuser2 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Historically speaking, the US Government is pretty damn good at winning wars of attrition. Don't think you're going to find any amount of money that Congress won't happily hand to the military-industrial complex. They'll spend whatever it takes.

> Historically speaking, the US Government is pretty damn good at winning wars of attrition. Unless you are speaking in some kind of figurative sense where I'm missing the metaphor, this isn't really true. The few real wars of attrition where the US has been on the winning side (WWI comes to mind) it "won" by joining late when the other side (as well as its allies) had already suffered considerable attrition. But eve…

Yeah it was an unfortunate phrasing. I meant as far as outspending an enemy (i.e. the USSR) to match/exceed technological capabilities.
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