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I Knew a Programmer Who Went Completely Insane

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Re: I Knew a Programmer Who Went Completely Insane

#181

Post by illsorted »

michaelochurch wrote: post #149
edw519 wrote: post #84

Although this is an extreme example, I sympathize and often have feelings like this. But it's not about the amount of work; it's about the constant internal struggle. Let me explain. I have never had a problem about the volume or difficulty of work in any job I've ever had. In fact, some of my favorite memories of work have been sprints to finish something, whether in software, retail/distribution, or food service. I…

You have fought the hydra bravely, and I commend you for that. May the road rise up to meet you. May the wind be always at your back. What do you suppose we do? For the long-term, here's the financial structure for the solution that I see: http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/03/26/gervais-macle... . Essentially, I think VC-istan and MegaCorps are both dead ends when it comes to genuine technical excellence (whic…

I submit Fargo, ND for your consideration. We have oil money, cheap cost of living, and a decent tech community.

Re: I Knew a Programmer Who Went Completely Insane

#182

Post by digisign »

nnq wrote: post #104
grey-area wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

constant work-prevention structure imposed by people who have never accomplished anything I think this comment distills the essence of the problem the which gives people so much trouble. If your perspective is that of a maker/hacker then good work (which should be rewarded) is to make great things, things please people and improve their lives, and perhaps profit the company. If your goal is maximising profit for the…

Agree with what you said. But please don't make it sound like an axis with two extremes: "the maker/hacker" and "the profit maximizer". There's a third sweet spot, the "making your client happy" spot, sometimes at the expense of your hacker spirit and sometimes at the expense of a little more short term profit ("ripping them off"). The people who find this 3rd mode of thinking, who believe in "making stuff that helps…

You are talking to grey-area after all.

Re: I Knew a Programmer Who Went Completely Insane

#183

Post by peterkelly »

This is a very timely article personally for me and I think this is a really important issue that companies of all shapes and sizes need to be aware of.

I've had a couple of times in the past where I've come very close to being this guy. I'm a very hard worker and take my job really seriously (probably too seriously), and have had management that either doesn't appreciate my contributions, or is driving the company in the wrong direction that you can just see it's going to fail. In this situation, the best thing to do (for both parties) is to simply quit.

And now I'm my own boss, and putting just as much pressure on myself as the management mentioned in the article. I've come to realise very recently (and after some wise advice from a very good friend of mine) how dumb this is, and that there's a certain point you reach where doing more work actually produces less value. In fact you could draw a graph of working hours vs. output, and it would rise steadily up to something like 40-50 hours, and then drop pretty rapidly after that.

I'm learning that not treating everything as urgent, and getting priorities right and accepting that some things just have to wait ultimately ends up being the best thing for everyone involved, including customers.

Re: I Knew a Programmer Who Went Completely Insane

#184

Post by thelittlelisper »

wnight wrote: post #177
thelittlelisper wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. I work at one of the top cancer research labs in the world, and you'd be surprised how dysfunctional our organization has become. It's perfectly described by what edw519 has outlined. Seeing millions of dollars poured in projects that go nowhere since they are executed by incompetent workers lead by machiavellian managers is horribly depressing. I feel that a startup setting would be…

Leak details. If nothing else, more light on the area would make it harder to screw around.

Thanks. Care to elaborate on this?

It's difficult to leak details and make an impact. Academia is really screwed up. 90% of what gets published is a blatant lie, but nobody seems to care. Most researchers live in a distorted reality.

Re: I Knew a Programmer Who Went Completely Insane

#185

Post by umsm »

michaelochurch wrote: post #149
edw519 wrote: post #84

Although this is an extreme example, I sympathize and often have feelings like this. But it's not about the amount of work; it's about the constant internal struggle. Let me explain. I have never had a problem about the volume or difficulty of work in any job I've ever had. In fact, some of my favorite memories of work have been sprints to finish something, whether in software, retail/distribution, or food service. I…

You have fought the hydra bravely, and I commend you for that. May the road rise up to meet you. May the wind be always at your back. What do you suppose we do? For the long-term, here's the financial structure for the solution that I see: http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/03/26/gervais-macle... . Essentially, I think VC-istan and MegaCorps are both dead ends when it comes to genuine technical excellence (whic…

I completely agree. If you look at the foundation of (in our case) America, it is comprised of a lot of hard work by small businesses and families. They don't dream of "making it big" but they're realistic, offer a product or service that is useful to the community, and try to serve it whole-souled.

Re: I Knew a Programmer Who Went Completely Insane

#186

Post by epochwolf »

crusso wrote: post #154
tgflynn wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a matter of human beings being treated like cogs in a machine (which is in fact what they are in today's world). The potential of highly intelligent people is wasted by those who are better at extracting value than creating it. This leads to ever growing frustration which eventually explodes leading to the destruction of peoples lives. These are seen as individual problems but if these trends continue I believe…

human beings being treated like cogs in a machine You realize that Hacker News is focused on people starting businesses, right? Why are you here? hard worker - exactly the type of concept that the machine uses to exploit the naive. When you get your car worked on, do you expect that the mechanic should fix your car because you're paying him to or because you give him a hug and tell him that he's a useful human being?…

> When you get a cup of coffee, do you expect the barista to want not only for you to pay for your double whip latte, but to also feel that you're validating her as a human being?

Yes. I go out of my way to do so. I do try to find things to praise because these people have tons of negative interactions everyday. I do my best to make my interactions with them positive.

Re: I Knew a Programmer Who Went Completely Insane

#187

Post by singular »

stray wrote: post #130
singular wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I have never had a problem about the volume or difficulty of work in any job I've ever had. In fact, some of my favorite memories of work have been sprints to finish something, whether in software, retail/distribution, or food service." I'm sure if I put you on a 120 hour week for a few months you'd change your opinion about that, even if you were to ship something at the end of it. I don't think it's a good idea no…

120-hour week for a few months? Shipped at the end of it? Is that a real project you worked on? If so, and if it happened a couple years ago in Colorado -- I was one of your coworkers. And I left just a couple weeks after the rest of you guys. That was some crazy shit but in the end we did ship. And on time, even. But I can't even pass that freeway exit any more without feeling a sense of dread.

Haha no thank Science just a theoretical situation, my word I feel for you man - that sounds horrific. I don't think I'd be able to cope. Games industry?

The point is that edw's comment on hours sits ill-at-ease with the rest of his post. As if overwork isn't a MAJOR factor in burnout.

I don't disagree with his other points, rather we mustn't pretend like working ludicrous hours isn't bad for you.

Re: I Knew a Programmer Who Went Completely Insane

#188

Post by joshuacc »

Throwadev wrote: post #129
ryan-allen wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for pointing this out. Your downvotes are not deserved. I imagine a number of mentally healthly programmers looking to prove a point in regards to unscrupulous employers would prefer that this not be chalked up to mental illness. Though the story to me reads like a classic case of mental illness and eventual breakdown. I posted a comment on the blog asking for follow up of the individuals case. Despite citi…

Off topic - but how does one downvote on HN? I only see a small up arrow to the left of the commenters' names. No down arrow.

There is a minimum karma threshold before new users are allowed to downvote.

Re: I Knew a Programmer Who Went Completely Insane

#189

Post by epochwolf »

agentultra wrote: post #145

Mental health is, unfortunately, not taken very seriously by many companies. I've never seen a benefits package that included therapy or coaching of any kind. We're put under a lot of stress at times (which can be exacerbated by existing mental conditions) and that can seriously affect our health. I suspect mental breakdowns happen more often than they are reported. It's not taken seriously and it's also something pe…

My benefits include access to lawyers and therapists but the company I work for sells stuff to the insurance market.

Re: I Knew a Programmer Who Went Completely Insane

#190

Post by vijayr »

edw519 wrote: post #84

Although this is an extreme example, I sympathize and often have feelings like this. But it's not about the amount of work; it's about the constant internal struggle. Let me explain. I have never had a problem about the volume or difficulty of work in any job I've ever had. In fact, some of my favorite memories of work have been sprints to finish something, whether in software, retail/distribution, or food service. I…

Is this not common in other industries too? Not just software? The frustration level is probably higher in creative/logical work (software, advertising etc) but I'd guess the situation is probably worse in other industries.

Is there any solution to this?

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