SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas • Hacker News Board

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#181

Post by niggler » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 7:27 PM UTC

WalterSear wrote: post #167

niggler wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was she tweeting from a personal or company account?

The same one she sent this joke about sexual humiliation from: https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425 And the company she was envangelising for on that twitter feed thinks that a visual joke about photocopying your genitals is not inappropriate for their jobs pages: http://i.imgur.com/uWc8P39.png I understand that speaker and context make all the difference, but she made a joke about sexual humil…

I was responding to "Her role is to speak for the company"

But yes, you do point out something strange about her tweets. Unfortunately, many people approach this issue with a double standard

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#182

Post by beebs93 » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 7:27 PM UTC

When the dust settles, all that will have really changed is male workers being even more overly-sensitive to every syllable they utter when a female colleague is within earshot.

I've personally said "Just fork her" many times at work in front of my female co-workers without an afterthought. While I will continue to do so, if a new female employee starts after today I may just wait for her to make a penis joke before I feel comfortable enough to suggest copying someone's repository to their personal one for the sake of code contribution and/or modification.

Sweet cake-frosting-Christ - this all could have been avoided with a head turn and a "Hey, do you guys mind not speaking like that here? It's making me uncomfortable".

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#183

Post by weego » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 7:27 PM UTC

danilocampos wrote: post #86

blhack wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you actually know what the guys said? They made a joke about the word "dong" sounding like the word "dongle". If this is what you think a frat house sounds like, you are very mistaken. That this is considered a faux pas is more politically correct than any office I've ever heard of.

> Do you actually know what the guys said? I can assure you I know substantially more on this than you do. People have a right to attend a conference without sexual jokes leaking into their ears while they attend a talk. It's as simple as that. Should the guy have been fired? No. Should he have been talking like that? No.

No, actually they don't have that right. They have the same rights as everyone else, which are to say as they please within acceptable limits and at acceptable volume and thus possibly hear other people exercising those same rights. That is the tricky thing with rights.

As far as anyone has commented everything he said was well within the acceptable rights people lazily call "freedom of speech" (I hesitate to even use the phrase in such contexts for fear of cheapening it). Possibly he was talking while a speaker was talking, which is rude but again does not infringe anyones rights and while that might result in an apology to the speaker or some staff that is pretty much as far as it should ever have gone, had people been mature.

Your understanding of rights appears naive at best I'm afraid.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#184

Post by masklinn » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 7:27 PM UTC

blhack wrote: post #146

hesdeadjim wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, it is 100% reasonable to be offended by conduct inappropriate for the event and to bring it to their attention. To grossly abuse your power and demonize two individuals who do not have a forum in which to rebut your accusations -- not okay.

But it wasn't inappropriate for the event. Adria notified the goons [or whatever pycon calls them], they came by, talked to everybody, and then nothing happened. They even amended their code of conduct to prevent what Adria did from happening in the future. And the CoC is pretty obviously directed at presenters, not people having a pseudo-private conversation with one another.

> But it wasn't inappropriate for the event.

It was absolutely inappropriate, even if not expressly specified so in the (since amended) CoC. It's easy to know that it was not appropriate to the event: mob justice never is an appropriate first-order response.

And no, it was no more appropriate a response to Adria's behavior. The whole clusterfuck is a direct result of recursive mobbing.

> Adria notified the goons [or whatever pycon calls them]

"Staff". Because that's what they are: https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/harassment-i...

Also, as I understand how things happened Adria first tweeted the picture (and comment), then notified staff. Your comment seems to imply it happened the other way around and she was essentially forced to tweet due to PyCon staff inaction.

> they came by, talked to everybody, and then nothing happened.

Eh? The guys who had made the inappropriate joke were temporarily removed to a private space, discussions happened, they agreed it was "in poor taste" and apologized, then were sent on their merry way: http://pycon.blogspot.be/2013/03/pycon-response-to-inappropr... Seems enough happening for an inappropriate but rather tame joke in an overhear-able private conversation.

> And the CoC is pretty obviously directed at presenters

You're high as a kite. Here's the third paragraph of the CoC:

> To make clear what is expected, all delegates/attendees, speakers, exhibitors, organizers and volunteers at any PyCon event are required to conform to the following Code of Conduct

emphasis mine. Note that "speakers" are a separate category from "delegates" (company presence) and "attendees" (private individuals). And the text repeatedly notes all attendees are expected to follow the CoC and may be removed upon breach.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#185

Post by Permit » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 7:27 PM UTC

shardling wrote: post #156

blhack wrote: post #20

I really wish that this whole thing could have ended amicably (perhaps with Adria apologizing to the devs [by the way, the guy who was fired has already publicly apologized]). It's too bad that sendgrid had to fire her, I would never wish that somebody had their livlihood taken from them like that, but her job was to be a developer evangelist, which is a job she isn't realistically capable of performing anymore. I wo…

>I would feel really uncomfortable if I was in the same room as this person. What if I accidentally say something that she finds offensive? Am I next? Next to what? Adria didn't fire anyone...

Next to have my picture posted on Twitter and blogged to thousands of people.

Next to be told I'm sexist and I'm the reason women don't enter the technology field.

Next to have my public shaming celebrated over a private remark I thought was tame.

Next to be involved in an asymmetrical Twitter smear campaign I can't respond to because I don't command thousands of followers.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#186

Post by Cy_ » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 7:27 PM UTC

shardling wrote: post #156

blhack wrote: post #20

I really wish that this whole thing could have ended amicably (perhaps with Adria apologizing to the devs [by the way, the guy who was fired has already publicly apologized]). It's too bad that sendgrid had to fire her, I would never wish that somebody had their livlihood taken from them like that, but her job was to be a developer evangelist, which is a job she isn't realistically capable of performing anymore. I wo…

>I would feel really uncomfortable if I was in the same room as this person. What if I accidentally say something that she finds offensive? Am I next? Next to what? Adria didn't fire anyone...

You're completely missing the point, her actions are what caused the person to be fired.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#187

Post by jkrems » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 7:27 PM UTC

niggler wrote: post #101

blhack wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From her account associated with sendgrid: https://twitter.com/adriarichards

She says she works for SendGrid but I thought people usually use a separate corporate twitter account (or set up a different one for those issues)

One of the minor side-problems in this story: social media blurs the line between "personal" and "professional"/"company" communication. If you use your twitter account to network with people working at other companies, in your role as a developer evangelist, your personal account somehow turns partly into a company account.

Side note: She also tweeted "SendGrid supports me", which is a direct claim that her behavior is in line with company policy.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#188

Post by jiggy2011 » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 7:27 PM UTC

salman89 wrote: post #112

antonej wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whistleblower concerns are totally legit, but that assumes the whistleblower follows common-sense normal procedures (e.g., telling the event organizers in private, or even calling their boss). The learning point here is about the manner in which the alleged harassment was "reported" -- trumpeted to the entire world via social media with photos attached.

I completely agree, and we as a society need to learn how to live in a world where a single tweet by an semi-influential figure can cause such a shit storm. How liable are people for actions resulting from a tweet? If someone famous snaps a photo of you, calls you a pedofile, and throws it on Twitter, what are the consequences?

> If someone famous snaps a photo of you, calls you a pedofile, and throws it on Twitter, what are the consequences?

You're basically fucked.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#189

Post by kalkin » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 7:28 PM UTC

blhack wrote: post #20

I really wish that this whole thing could have ended amicably (perhaps with Adria apologizing to the devs [by the way, the guy who was fired has already publicly apologized]). It's too bad that sendgrid had to fire her, I would never wish that somebody had their livlihood taken from them like that, but her job was to be a developer evangelist, which is a job she isn't realistically capable of performing anymore. I wo…

A bunch of sexist loons attack somebody, and the right thing to do is fire her because it proves she isn't a good evangelist anymore? Seems to me that's awarding a really dangerous amount of power to sexist loons on the Internet.

... I suppose I should defend the "sexist loons" label. It would be one thing if people were attacking PlayHaven. They're the ones who made the decision to overreact to Adria's post and fire the guy - a decision she apparently disagreed with. That people got mad at Adria, rather than the folks with hiring & firing power, is, well, weird at best. And if you read the comment threads (like the one on SendGrid's Facebook post), it becomes clear that the explanation for a lot of the weirdness that a bunch of men have deep-seated grievances against "feminists". For people who are saying she deserved to be fired because she linked John Scalzi's post - http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-th... - this is clearly not about free speech or privacy. And the rage level against Adria would be way lower without those people.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#190

Post by cperciva » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 7:28 PM UTC

setrofim_ wrote: post #83

Joeboy wrote: post #5

Given the way this has escalated I'm expecting it to have engulfed the entire civilized world by the end of the week. You Americans are crazy.

Agreed. This has gotten out of hand fast. Two people now have lost their jobs over what is basically a harmless, if somewhat inappropriate, joke. And while I believe that Adria was wrong in how she reacted to that joke, and in refusing to admit fault or apologize afterwards, I'm not sure she should have lost their job over it. This is basically a non-issue that has been blown way out of proportion by social media.

If she was merely a developer or other non-public-facing employee, there would be no reason for her to lose her job. But she was a developer evangelist -- someone who should know that everything she says and does reflects on the company -- and even if you agree with her actions you can't deny that the storm surrounding them would make it nearly impossible for her to effectively work in a job which involves meeting and working with developers.