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It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

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Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#181

Post by MDS100 »

illuminate wrote: post #115
MDS100 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some things do work and are not yet accepted in medicine. Herbal medicine etc.pp. Often it's just hard to patent and/or isn't financially lucrative to get FDA approval. Also lifestyle in general is terribly handled in medicine. MDs know nearly nothing about what matters and what they should recommend. They are decades behind the available evidence.

"Some things do work and are not yet accepted in medicine. Herbal medicine etc." Herbal medicine is medicine. "Alt-med" is reserved for treatments that are not and will not ever be evidence-based.

I am on my way to my MD, I know. But in the real world people do use "Alt Med" for treatments that have shown efficacy already. It takes far longer than expected until this stuff becomes part of practiced medicine though. In the end I don't care about the label, but the evidence/science and the results.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#182

Post by MDS100 »

Nursie wrote: post #84
MDS100 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some things do work and are not yet accepted in medicine. Herbal medicine etc.pp. Often it's just hard to patent and/or isn't financially lucrative to get FDA approval. Also lifestyle in general is terribly handled in medicine. MDs know nearly nothing about what matters and what they should recommend. They are decades behind the available evidence.

Some herbal medicine may work. Without proper studies we don't know. I agree that lifestyle stuff is important, can be handled by none MD folks, and can have a huge impact on life and health in general. What gets my goat is the CAM proponents who claim they can cure anything and everything with their woo.

But there are a bunch of studies on useful stuff. Inositol, Theanine etc. And we still don't do studies because interests don't align well for it to happen quickly. My point being that some Alt Med Practitioners actually help. I don't like it, because I heavily dislike the widespread incompetence about science/medicine in Alt Med circles. But it's still true.

Well the MDs do give you lifestyle advice. And the "professionals" that should care about this stuff (esp. dieticians) also suck badly. They often just regurgitate the food pyramid.

I completely agree otherwise.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#183

Post by papsosouid »

JPKab wrote: post #175
papsosouid wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Life expectancy FROM BIRTH has risen dramatically, but if you rule out those who died before they reached 5 years old, and rule out violent deaths and/or viral/bacterial plagues, you begin to realize that life expectancy is not much higher today. That is a myth. Life expectancy is much higher at all ages. In ancient Rome, the life expectancy for a 15 year old was 52. In modern first world nations, life expectancy at…

And you don't think the life expectancy for a 15 year old being 52 didn't have to do with deaths due to disease/violence? Let's look at a familiar group of people who had zero access to antibiotics nor modern medicine. America's founding fathers: "For their era, the 1787 delegates (like the 1776 signers) were average in terms of life spans.[15] Their average age at death was about 67. The first to die was Houston in…

I have no idea what point you are trying to make. Of course their lower lifespan was partly due to disease, that is the point.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#184

Post by dalke »

analog wrote: post #180
dalke wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to be clear, your primary reference is The American Cancer Society, which is a non-profit charity. You know it's not a scientific research organization, right? And one which has a rather mediocre rating, as charities go? Why do you pick specifically that reference, which sits very carefully on the fence in order to find something good about naturopathic therapies? ("good diet" and "counseling" are, of course, qu…

I did a quick google search and it was one of the first references that came up. I only have to provide a citation that CAM sometimes works to disprove Nursies assertion that CAM "doesn't work".

Nursie did not assert simply that all of CAM "doesn't work". Nursie pointed out that those aspects of CAM which do work are shared with traditional medicine, and have been part of traditional medicine for a long time. They are not specific to CAM.

A naturopath may suggest that you always wear a seatbelt when driving a car. That doesn't make the suggestion part of naturopathy.

A naturopath may suggest that you keep the safety on when carrying a firearm. Again, that's a good suggestion, but it's not something specific to naturopathy.

The examples you pointed out on the Cancer Society web page are not unique to naturopathy. I interpret them as trying to say something good about naturopathy, probably because of so many complaints about how naturopathy is being 'suppressed by Western thought', or something like that.

The NIH site I pointed you to reports on the CAM practices which are specific to CAM. Very few of them "work" in any fashion, and none of them are treatments.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#185

Post by JPKab »

papsosouid wrote: post #183
JPKab wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you don't think the life expectancy for a 15 year old being 52 didn't have to do with deaths due to disease/violence? Let's look at a familiar group of people who had zero access to antibiotics nor modern medicine. America's founding fathers: "For their era, the 1787 delegates (like the 1776 signers) were average in terms of life spans.[15] Their average age at death was about 67. The first to die was Houston in…

I have no idea what point you are trying to make. Of course their lower lifespan was partly due to disease, that is the point.

No, its not the point. Did you even read the article? The article is making a claim that the specific "diseases of civilization" (heart disease, cancer, diabetes) would have been equally prevalent in primitive societies IF people had actually made it to old age. There is zero discussion or argument about the fact that people died of random shit that is today easily cured. The argument is due to the fact that the people that DIDN't die due to random pathogens/violent acts/etc DID live to comparable levels of old age, and the author doesn't get that. When more than half of children die before age 5, it skews the life expectancy statistic the author is citing to claim that there were no old people around to get heart disease or cancer. This is completely incorrect.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#186

Post by analog »

dalke wrote: post #184
analog wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did a quick google search and it was one of the first references that came up. I only have to provide a citation that CAM sometimes works to disprove Nursies assertion that CAM "doesn't work".

Nursie did not assert simply that all of CAM "doesn't work". Nursie pointed out that those aspects of CAM which do work are shared with traditional medicine, and have been part of traditional medicine for a long time. They are not specific to CAM. A naturopath may suggest that you always wear a seatbelt when driving a car. That doesn't make the suggestion part of naturopathy. A naturopath may suggest that you keep th…

No sorry you're wrong, he responded to me saying 'if it works' with "It doesn't.", and also said "I don't understand how it works because it doesn't"

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#187

Post by dalke »

analog wrote: post #186
dalke wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nursie did not assert simply that all of CAM "doesn't work". Nursie pointed out that those aspects of CAM which do work are shared with traditional medicine, and have been part of traditional medicine for a long time. They are not specific to CAM. A naturopath may suggest that you always wear a seatbelt when driving a car. That doesn't make the suggestion part of naturopathy. A naturopath may suggest that you keep th…

No sorry you're wrong, he responded to me saying 'if it works' with "It doesn't." , and also said "I don't understand how it works because it doesn't"

"It" refers to the part of alt.med which isn't part of med. That's the part that makes it "alt."

At least, that's how I interpret it. The full context is:

analog: "Paleo diet has worked, and also alt medicine", followed by Nursie: "I don't understand how it works because it doesn't!"

The immediate context for 'it' is homeopathy, but I think, based on Nursie's other statements, that it should apply to all of alt.med. It doesn't apply to (to coin an abbreviation), "std.med", because it seems that Nursie finds convincing evidence that std.med does work.

So the question to you is, what puts the "alt." in "alt.med"? If practice X is part of "alt.med" and is part of "std.med" then is how is X "alt"?

It's possible that something started as alt.med and became part of std.med, but the practices listed on the ACS page have been part of std.med since pretty much since the dawn of evidence-based medicine, so it's not like std.med recently took those parts from alt.med.

Therefore, you should interpret those quote of Nursie to mean:

"[The part of alt.med which is specific to alt.med] doesn't [work]" and "I don't understand how [the alt. part of alt.med] works because [the alt. part of alt.med] doesn't [have any demonstrated effectiveness]".

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#188

Post by analog »

dalke wrote: post #187
analog wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No sorry you're wrong, he responded to me saying 'if it works' with "It doesn't." , and also said "I don't understand how it works because it doesn't"

"It" refers to the part of alt.med which isn't part of med. That's the part that makes it "alt." At least, that's how I interpret it. The full context is: analog: "Paleo diet has worked, and also alt medicine", followed by Nursie: "I don't understand how it works because it doesn't!" The immediate context for 'it' is homeopathy, but I think, based on Nursie's other statements, that it should apply to all of alt.med.…

One of the examples cited by the ACS is the use of prayer. Apparently this has been shown to be effective in some cases.

The use of prayer is definitely part of alt med, and has been shown to work, therefore Nursie is incorrect when he says "alt med does not work".

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#189

Post by illuminate »

MDS100 wrote: post #181
illuminate wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Some things do work and are not yet accepted in medicine. Herbal medicine etc." Herbal medicine is medicine. "Alt-med" is reserved for treatments that are not and will not ever be evidence-based.

I am on my way to my MD, I know. But in the real world people do use "Alt Med" for treatments that have shown efficacy already. It takes far longer than expected until this stuff becomes part of practiced medicine though. In the end I don't care about the label, but the evidence/science and the results.

"But in the real world people do use "Alt Med" for treatments that have shown efficacy already."

You're investing in their false modality by using it to define actual medicine, in the same way that people market "homeopathic" OTC based on actual ingredients and not "water memory".

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#190

Post by dalke »

analog wrote: post #188
dalke wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It" refers to the part of alt.med which isn't part of med. That's the part that makes it "alt." At least, that's how I interpret it. The full context is: analog: "Paleo diet has worked, and also alt medicine", followed by Nursie: "I don't understand how it works because it doesn't!" The immediate context for 'it' is homeopathy, but I think, based on Nursie's other statements, that it should apply to all of alt.med.…

One of the examples cited by the ACS is the use of prayer. Apparently this has been shown to be effective in some cases. The use of prayer is definitely part of alt med, and has been shown to work, therefore Nursie is incorrect when he says "alt med does not work".

No, prayer has not been shown to work.

Rather, what do you mean by "work"? If people who pray feel more relaxed, then yes, it works for some people. So does meditation. So does reading a book, or watching a movie. Or playing cards, or talking with friends.

If by "effective" you mean that people who pray have a higher longevity, higher rate of being cured, etc. then no, it doesn't work. This type of prayer is usually called intercessory prayer.

Take for example http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567 .

> Intercessory prayer is widely believed to influence recovery from illness, but claims of benefits are not supported by well-controlled clinical trials. Prior studies have not addressed whether prayer itself or knowledge/certainty that prayer is being provided may influence outcome. We evaluated whether (1) receiving intercessory prayer or (2) being certain of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with uncomplicated recovery after coronary artery bypass graft (CABG) surgery. ...

> CONCLUSIONS: Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications.

Take for another example http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19370557 .

> OBJECTIVES: To review the effects of intercessory prayer as an additional intervention for people with health problems already receiving routine health care.

> AUTHORS' CONCLUSIONS: These findings are equivocal and, although some of the results of individual studies suggest a positive effect of intercessory prayer, the majority do not and the evidence does not support a recommendation either in favour or against the use of intercessory prayer. We are not convinced that further trials of this intervention should be undertaken and would prefer to see any resources available for such a trial used to investigate other questions in health care.

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