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Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

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Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#181

Post by stcredzero »

gamblor956 wrote: post #116
lawdawg wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you (or 99% of HN) read the NYT article? "When I parked the car, its computer said I had 90 miles of range, twice the 46 miles back to Milford. It was a different story at 8:30 the next morning. The thermometer read 10 degrees and the display showed 25 miles of remaining range" "I called Tesla in California, and the official I woke up said I needed to “condition” the battery pack to restore the lost energy." Look…

The NYT upgraded their paywall this week, so there is a good chance that most of HN did not in fact read the NYT article before commenting on it. Also, there is a disturbing amount of herd mentality in these comments; people are instinctively shielding/supporting Elon Musk, a fellow techie, rather than the "interloping" journalist, even though even a cursory Google search of other reviews of the Model S, the Roadster…

> It should also be noted that Elon Musk has made public misrepresentations in the recent past about competitors to SpaceX, in particular, about the cause of Boeing's battery problems

Really? As I recall, he speculated that improper isolation between cells allowed for failures to cascade to adjacent ones. Turns out, that's what it was.

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#182

Post by makomk »

Retric wrote: post #150
danso wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just for reference's sake: > After making arrangements to recharge at the Norwich station, I located the proper adapter in the trunk, plugged in and walked to the only warm place nearby, Butch’s Luncheonette and Breakfast Club, an establishment (smoking allowed) where only members can buy a cup of coffee or a plate of eggs. But the owners let me wait there while the Model S drank its juice. Tesla’s experts said that…

Except, he would need to wait around at the next charging station anyway. So, taking a risk more or less stupid behavior. As to people doing the same thing, of course they do. Do you have any idea how many people run out of gas despite how common gas stations are and the standard reserve capacity?

The Supercharger is a hell of a lot faster than the charging station in Norwich he set off to get to it from, though. As in, it can do a full charge in the amount of time it'd take him to get any kind of meaningful additional top-up at Norwich .

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#183

Post by alanctgardner2 »

astine wrote: post #158
pbreit wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you provide a citation for the mis-statements about the Boeing battery situation? I couldn't find any.

He's probably refering to this incident : http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/elon-musk-boeing-7...

Nothing in that article implies that Musk was wrong. It's just Musk's public statement that the battery design is faulty.

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#184

Post by grecy »

taligent wrote: post #172
rhizome wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pace your sense of the NY Times motivations, I offer Judy Miller: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_Miller#New_York_Times_ca...

I am well aware of Judy Miller and the many other occasions where their work has been dreadful. But we are talking about a paper that has been around 150+ years. My point was that they aren't the type of paper who writes flamebait articles just to get more online hits.

In the first paragraph you acknowledge there have been "many occasions" of "dreadful" reporting.

In the second paragraph you state they are not a bad paper.

You are very confused.

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#185

Post by brown9-2 »

gfodor wrote: post #21

I guess it's time to muddy the waters. The truth is in the middle! Of course, the entire debacle can be summed up with the following exchange: Q: "How many miles did you have left to drive on the final leg?" Broder: "61" Q: "And how many miles did your car tell you that you could travel before recharging?" Broder: "32" Of course, Broder claims that Tesla told him it was OK to leave. I think this is bullshit, but will…

The goal of "review this car for everyday use" is not the same objective as just "get from A to B sanely".

A lot of comments here seem to miss that the reviewer was putting the car through a test, and the test required only abiding by certain parameters (the super charger stations).

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#186

Post by dublinben »

lawdawg wrote: post #106
halviti wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read all the arguments on both sides, and while both have made good points, there is one that stands out. This reporter clearly barely made any attempt at recharging his empty vehicle in Norwich, and then attempted a drive well beyond the car's capabilities, then made the "running out of fuel" his headline. If he would have done this on gasoline, the result would have been the same, and I think that is getting l…

Did you (or 99% of HN) read the NYT article? "When I parked the car, its computer said I had 90 miles of range, twice the 46 miles back to Milford. It was a different story at 8:30 the next morning. The thermometer read 10 degrees and the display showed 25 miles of remaining range" "I called Tesla in California, and the official I woke up said I needed to “condition” the battery pack to restore the lost energy." Look…

Tesla and every other EV manufacturer recommend charging overnight. The author wouldn't have been able to produce his catastrophic breakdown if he'd followed this simple precaution.

It's also pretty clear from the data that he lied about the speed he was driving at.

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#187

Post by jzwinck »

mieubrisse wrote: post #164
danso wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just for reference's sake: > After making arrangements to recharge at the Norwich station, I located the proper adapter in the trunk, plugged in and walked to the only warm place nearby, Butch’s Luncheonette and Breakfast Club, an establishment (smoking allowed) where only members can buy a cup of coffee or a plate of eggs. But the owners let me wait there while the Model S drank its juice. Tesla’s experts said that…

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that people need to put a little more thought into a car that's fundamentally different than standard cars today. Your last paragraph is making a bad comparison to try and put down this point: a laptop operates off of all one reservoir, while the current ICE car uses gas to drive and a battery to operate the "other stuff". We watch the gas gauge and see that it drops in a dir…

That's not quite right. Traditional cars have batteries, but those batteries are just to smooth out energy usage so you can start the car a few days after stopping it, power the radio for a few hours, etc. But of course the charge used fundamentally comes from gasoline, via the engine's alternator.

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#188

Post by brown9-2 »

JPKab wrote: post #7

"Convincing? No. His other chart shows the mile range dipped below zero, which would indicate the car could not move. " Wow, I wish I could be as sloppy and awful at my job as these journalists are. Had he actually bothered to truly read the response he is commenting on, he would see that Musk states that, when the car's range dips below zero, it is running on reserve power. It takes some miles after "zero" for the c…

The author noticed her mistake and has since corrected it. Sometimes even the un-hackiest of us make mistakes.

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#189

Post by dublinben »

schiffern wrote: post #153
smackfu wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fact is he basically was stupid enough to essentially leave a gas station with half a tank when he had a full tanks worth of distance to travel. Part of the problem is that apparently the Tesla's displayed range can show one value after a cold night, then will increase when the battery warms up and is providing more energy. So you legitimately can start driving with too little range, and then it will come back.…

You would think the range calculations would account for that effect. They already have temperature sensors in the pack, and storing some historical data is cheap.

The batteries do have a reduced capacity when cold, so the range calculation is accurate. Tesla can only unofficially expect the range to recover, not guarantee it.

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#190

Post by stcredzero »

niggler wrote: post #125
halviti wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you assume that at no point during the journey did the gauge correct itself, and that the reporter was right to just drive past fueling stations until he "had to be towed", then you assume the vehicle has serious operational problems. I will wait for more evidence before I believe that to be the case.

Here is my thought on the matter: The reporter's behaviors are indeed consistent with what he claims he was told by Tesla when he called them during the journey. If the car manufacturer told me that regenerative braking can help extend the mileage, as dumb as it sounds I absolutely would repeatedly brake the car. I'm not an expert in electric vehicles, and if the company is telling me this is good for the car I would…

> If the car manufacturer told me that regenerative braking can help extend the mileage, as dumb as it sounds I absolutely would repeatedly brake the car.

Wow. Just Wow!

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