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AI is removing the middle class of software engineering

blog.florianherrengt.com

181–190 of 304 posts

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no programming is verifiable, and the major LLM companies are focused on it. its the first domino to fall by probably 5+ years

I think this is true. A lot of AI believers (me too fwiw) seem to forget it’s a lot harder to ‘close the loop’ on non-code projects. I think this is because they are usually coders.

That's what all AI believers get it wrong about programming. Code doesn't create products, humans do.

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering

#182
post #56
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is true of all tools. AI is a tool. A tool provides leverage. It does not make a bad craftsperson good.

I hate that framing because it glosses over what makes AI distinct from other technology. Pretty much anything can be used as a tool, that’s not an interesting aspect of AI. However standard tools do not take decisions on behalf of the user, they do not apply judgement. They come with assumptions and constraints that make some decisions more likely to be made. But the whole thing about LLMs is that they apply judgeme…

If you go back in time and imagine yourself in 1950, would you have said that about computers in general? Yes their decisions are the result of pre programmed heuristics, but to the operator that can feel as opaque as AI. In fact in the early days of computing AI was used to refer to a broader swath of what we now call heuristics and machine learning.

Is a very sophisticated computer driven adaptive control system making decisions for the user? Arguably yes. If your car has a bunch of assist tech you are not driving. You are commanding a nonlinear control system.

AI today is quantitatively far beyond these systems but internally it is still just a giant decision table. It’s just a differentiable table that can be automatically programmed by back propagation at what would be unimaginable scale for manual implementation.

As soon as you put a machine between you and the target action that is more complex than what you can hold in your head and that has multiple layers or feedback loops, you are ceding fine grained direct control in favor of a simpler abstract control surface.

I will change my mind a little if I start seeing evidence of genuine volition, but as of now I suspect that’s a property of life not intelligence. One interesting result of AI when viewed as an experiment is: I think it proves that life and intelligence are separate phenomena and that consciousness and intelligence may actually be unrelated.

I have the hypothesis that consciousness (and therefore true volition) is a property of life. You have to be metabolic and tied in some intimate way to thermodynamics and the arrow of time. Solid state electronics doesn’t have this property. It’s unrelated to intelligence. A bacterium may be conscious.

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering

#183
post #35

> bad engineers were always a liability This part of the article hits home for me. With AI, "bad" engineers can now amplify their "bad" engineering x10 across the organization. The most egregious of these cases for me is often long tenured engineers who have lost interest in the craft, creating a dangerous combination of having enough merit to ship but not enough interest to make what they ship _good_. I am still a f…

Ironically, AI mitigates bad developers quite a bit. The architecture/design is coming from above bad devs (in a functional org), and AI tends to write less sloppy code than bad devs, and test/validate it more rigorously.

Less sloppy in that it's clean and consistent looking but much more sloppy in the AI good looking non-sense way.

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering

#185
post #35

> bad engineers were always a liability This part of the article hits home for me. With AI, "bad" engineers can now amplify their "bad" engineering x10 across the organization. The most egregious of these cases for me is often long tenured engineers who have lost interest in the craft, creating a dangerous combination of having enough merit to ship but not enough interest to make what they ship _good_. I am still a f…

To everyone complaining about "slop" and "+20000 PRs," what kind of systematic quality assurance, test plans, and tech debt reductions were you doing before the "LLMpocalypse?"

Were you only relying on the difficulty of producing "working" from replacement skill/rate "software engineers" and their level of disinterest being the only real circuit breaker?

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All fields are basically over as a long term career besides perhaps prostitutes and even there I'm not entirely sure. But the questions of how soon and by how much matter a lot. Being early is the same as being wrong a clever guy once said.

no programming is verifiable, and the major LLM companies are focused on it. its the first domino to fall by probably 5+ years

Is it really that simple ? A programming function that has set inputs and determinstic outputs is rather verifyable. A ten million lines code base is not easily verifyable. Knowing whether an agent is improving when it's working on a huge codebase is not that easy - it could easily start hurting code quality without it being clear in any output.

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering

#187
post #35

> bad engineers were always a liability This part of the article hits home for me. With AI, "bad" engineers can now amplify their "bad" engineering x10 across the organization. The most egregious of these cases for me is often long tenured engineers who have lost interest in the craft, creating a dangerous combination of having enough merit to ship but not enough interest to make what they ship _good_. I am still a f…

To everyone complaining about "slop" and "+20000 PRs," what kind of systematic quality assurance, test plans, and tech debt reductions were you doing before the "LLMpocalypse?" Were you only relying on the difficulty of producing "working" from replacement skill/rate "software engineers" and their level of disinterest being the only real circuit breaker?

We had a dedicated QA team and an extensive test base... which we fired to reduce headcount, and we've trimmed back because we don't have the hardware resources to run those tests sufficiently expeditiously.

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the field is basically over as a long term career unless you are truly exceptional. It will become very easy to build most software, and the upper end will be filled with the top people in the country/from abroad. Wages are certainly going down for most software roles

> It will become very easy to build most software We keep hearing this, but where is the Photoshop killer written by a gas station attendant? Where is the PayPal alternative written by a retired nurse? Over and over we're told that software is now trivial to write, and Claude is evidently writing some billions of lines of code a day, but where are the results? Where is the vibe coded app toppling the legacy hand-code…

In the "iceberg" of boring company systems I see working day to day I actually think delivery of production software has been slowed down. The cost of "writing" code went down a bit, while validation costs positively exploded.

There are definitely more apps developed these days but I haven't seen anything much vibe coded which actually seems to have staying power. Everything is prototype quality.

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the field is basically over as a long term career unless you are truly exceptional. It will become very easy to build most software, and the upper end will be filled with the top people in the country/from abroad. Wages are certainly going down for most software roles

> It will become very easy to build most software We keep hearing this, but where is the Photoshop killer written by a gas station attendant? Where is the PayPal alternative written by a retired nurse? Over and over we're told that software is now trivial to write, and Claude is evidently writing some billions of lines of code a day, but where are the results? Where is the vibe coded app toppling the legacy hand-code…

Why ask such extreme stuff? Why not ask about the solo entrepreneur who creates a convincing iOS app without a programming background? Advantage the problem on the side of ML and look for winning scenarios today.

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering

#190

It wasn't that long ago that many were demanding writing code be a required subject in elementary school.

The fact that a machine can do something better than humans doesn’t automatically make learning it pointless.

We still teach arithmetic and algebra despite computers being vastly better at calculation. We teach spelling, grammar and essay writing. We even teach history and geography while everyone permanently has a device in their pocket that can look up almost any fact in seconds.

How else would you be developing the mental models required to understand, question and verify anything?

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