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Mistral Patent for “Code implemented tool calls”

patentsgazette.uspto.gov

181–190 of 209 posts

Re: Mistral Patent for “Code implemented tool calls”

#181
Regular PSA for patent-related discussions: what matters is the claims, so before commenting one should read those.

Also this is a patent application, so it has not been examined yet. The claims at this point will always be over-broad, because that's just how patent prosecution works: the applicant (brazenly) tries to stake out as much "intellectual territory" as possible (because why not!) but the patent authorities will push back to the extent it does not overlap with other existing "territories" i.e. prior art. The applicant then narrows their claims and the back-and-forth continues until the authority determines that the claims are indeed novel and non-obvious enough to be granted. Every alternate back-and-forth costs $$ and time, which incentivizes applicants to make reasonable claims.

A typical way this negotiation often proceeds is that the applicant starts with a couple of the broadest claims they think reasonable and add multiple narrowing claims (or "dependent" claims) that cover narrower and narrower functionalities, essentially a dependency tree of claims.

This is because the examiner must judge each claim on its own merits, so while the broader claims could get knocked out, the narrower claims could survive and can indicate which "territory" is still unclaimed. The applicant can then focus on that (e.g. by making it part of the root independent claim.)

So often what is interesting in patent applicitations are the dependent claims.

For this patent, the current primary claim literally covers the concept of a tool call by an LLM, and as comments point out, this is ridiculously broad and will get knocked out by prior art. But the dependent claims are intriguing.

A quick glance at those indicates that Mistral thinks the more novel or non-obvious aspects are a "stateless resumable sandbox" which works by executing the generated code until a "non-deterministic operation" (like a random number or a date) and on getting the result of that operation replaying all the code that executed up until that point. The results of previous such operations are cached for reuse in subsequent re-executions.

Now I'm not at all knowledgeable about this area, but I did write a very rudimentary tool-calling LLM harness at one point, and offhand I would now have considered this approach -- re-executing the same code multiple times just seems wasteful and unnecessary. But the specification points out there are other considerations at play in more complex situations, so maybe this is narrower and more interesting than what the title and top claim indicates.

Re: Mistral Patent for “Code implemented tool calls”

#183
Oh wow :D Not commenting on the larger picture of why or why not Mistral might be doing that, but commenting on the idea itself: I plan to build my own harness soon, and one of its core tenants was, from the beginning, that it would parse every tool call the LLM attempts and executes them itself. I most cases, that would mean to delegate to one of the tools of the rust coreutils, or making a call to a LSP server.

My reasoning: - That way I will have maximum control over how the LLM can interact with the world (i.e. I can even narrow down which arguments I support/not support) - The monitoring story should be great as well, since every interaction with the outside world happens at one place only - I can add functionality as I go, and can understand how the harness changes and why it does what it does from the ground up

The biggest challenge I foresee is with the LLMs making tool calls and having them react to the results. I also wonder how far I will even get with this :D

Back to topic; "code implemented tool calls" is basically my "oh yeah my harness can do tool calls too" (and everything I need is implemented in one codebase, in... code)

Re: Mistral Patent for “Code implemented tool calls”

#185
post #122
post #34

It is quite funny an EU company patenting a software feature that is basically unpatentable in EU in the US. Clearly this is an attempt to prevent similar patents from being weaponised against them in the US. No one cares about such stuff in Europe.

> Clearly this is an attempt to prevent similar patents from being weaponised against them in the US. Why do we assume that Mistral is a "good guy" protecting themselves? I'm not sure they necessarily are. Could just be trying to grab any ground they can. I mean, maybe they are the "good guy", but I don't think we know either way.

Even if it’s good now, three to five years down the line there’s a 50% chance it’s sold for scraps and this may end up in the hands of a patent troll.

Re: Mistral Patent for “Code implemented tool calls”

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That surely wouldn't benefit incumbent large organizations against small time inventors

it's been a while since the patenting system benefit small time inventors

Sure, why not make it more difficult, then?

Re: Mistral Patent for “Code implemented tool calls”

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>For software Copyright is a far better instrument. Let the one with best implementation win... That's where the cost is: Implementing, testing, shipping, maintaining. Protect that. But this is minimally protectable, and you can copy the idea just not the exact implementation. Copyright does not have a 'doctrine of equivalents' equivalent. It also supports independent creation. Copyright also does not cover functiona…

Yes. And that was exactly my point. If an idea is just an idea that anyone can have under the shower, there is no value to society in granting a monopoly to that idea. There was no cost to said idea. In that case is better for society to grant a monopoly on a particular expression of that idea (an implementation). If that idea had cost (say) a billion dollars (like in some medical research or physical research), ther…

Are you saying Mistral didn't invest a lot of money in discovering the invention this patent covers? I'd bet they'd say otherwise. How is the patent office supposed to tell the difference?

I don't think a "pay-to-play" system works. There's already trade secrets that allow corporations to invest lots of money in protecting things that aren't even inventions. You just seem like you're trying to figure which patents are good or bad. But if a patent is widely infringed, by the same kind of logic, it must have tremendous value as an invention.

Re: Mistral Patent for “Code implemented tool calls”

#188
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you need to actively litigate infringements if you want to keep it. No you don't. That being said, what is the point of a patent if not to enforce the right of exclusivity it grants as to the invention?

Yeah you're right, I was thinking of trademarks. I just think the system is very cumbersome and antiquated, these days it mostly serves to benefit patent lawyers rather than inventors and small businesses, aside from highly regulated fields where things move slower.

> Yeah you're right, I was thinking of trademarks. I just think the system is very cumbersome and antiquated

It's always something like this, from someone who didn't even realize they weren't actually talking about patents in the first place.

Re: Mistral Patent for “Code implemented tool calls”

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you need to actively litigate infringements if you want to keep it. No you don't. That being said, what is the point of a patent if not to enforce the right of exclusivity it grants as to the invention?

> what is the point of a patent if not to enforce the right of exclusivity it grants Usually it's to defend against another company using a "blocking patent" by pursuing you for infringing their patent which is built upon the thing you patented, doing the next step which was always obvious to you. So that you can continue building what you started in the first place, instead of being shut down while someone else take…

>Usually it's to defend against another company using a "blocking patent" by pursuing you for infringing their patent which is built upon the thing you patented, doing the next step which was always obvious to you.

Would be pretty hard to sue someone for practicing a patent that cites that person in prior art who concurrently was inventing the same thing and would say how obvious it ones. You're going to tell me it's not so easy, but you completely made up some really narrow and specific situation anyway...

>Not for exclusivity.

It's only your right to exclude others from it that gives a patent any defense... it's all about exclusivity. That's the fundamental nature of property law.

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