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Silicon Valley misreads science fiction and undermines democracy

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Re: Silicon Valley misreads science fiction and undermines democracy

#181

I think some of them intentionally model themselves after the evil characters in fiction. I remember seeing Musk talk one time about how he loves the game Deus Ex. And there's an almost uncanny resemblance between his actions and Bob Page's. The other canonical example of this is the naming of Palantir, of course. In many cases I think it's less that they misread the fiction, and more that they intentionally model th…

Of the 5 users of the Palantirs that we know of 2 are good, 2 are evil, and one is tragic.

There is quite a bit of literature about the Palantir and the related philosophy, whether thy were allegories, etc.

AFAICT the consensus is that they are a very catholic concept and an illustration of what could happen when you use the weapon of your enemy and in general don’t understand the means you use to your end and how even strong people deceive themselves willingly when they think they act for the greater good (movie Denethor is a fool but book Denethor is wise and shrewd, but misguided by despair and Sauron’s manipulation).

So yes, strictly speaking the palantirs are neutral. But that’s missing the whole point of the story.

To me it’s completely fitting. They want to use Evil’s tools but they are Denethor, not Aragorn (who did not over-estimate his will and knew not to get too close). They think that what is good for them is good for the world, and it completely warped their perception.

Re: Silicon Valley misreads science fiction and undermines democracy

#182

> "So, to the degree that we can locate an origin point for the promise that better computer technology would make for better democracies, I think the moment you would first look to would be January 1984, that Super Bowl ad that Apple ran for the release of the Macintosh, with the the sort of George Orwell, 1984 [theme]." With the greatest respect to Ms. Lepore's scholarship, I would suggest that that ad is too pop-c…

Sometimes, I wonder how these guys are doing these days. They were utterly, spectacularly wrong about almost all their points. What do they do now? Are they grumpy libertarians living in the woods? Did they fall in line behind Thiel and his bullshit religious pseudo-philosophy? Did they just shrug and changed ideas?

Barlow died in 2018. As for others, I dunno... it was a different time and the net was new and exciting. JPB undoubtedly got a bit over-enthusiastic though.

Re: Silicon Valley misreads science fiction and undermines democracy

#183
post #150
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well “a lot” in volume sure, but that feels unnecessarily (maybe ignorantly) dismissive of the core corpus of the field. Find me any field in which there isn’t “a lot” of BS.

If it is known that a lot of the marbles are pink there would have to be other colors. That means there is something to it!

I'm not sure if providing a counterargument to a point not being made is a good way to argue against a field that trains people to notice when you do that.

Re: Silicon Valley misreads science fiction and undermines democracy

#185

I don’t even think most of it is deeply philosophical. They just got uberrich and now worry more about the concerns of the uberrich than the concerns they had when they were normies. Rule of law, functioning government providing services, functioning public commons, free press, freedom of speech for all, any social safety net, etc don’t matter when they are so far removed from the public they can just go buy yourself…

> Rule of law, functioning government providing services Jokes on them, without rule of law and functioning government to enforce it there is no ownership.

That was my first reaction too. Did the ultra rich not need to concern themselves with these petty matters in 1917 Russia, for example?

But thinking more, things are different today. Wealth is international on a qualitatively different level than it was a hundred years ago. If you’re the richest of the rich in revolutionary Russia a century ago, you'll probably lose all of your wealth if not your life. If you’re very lucky you might end up in exile, struggling to survive.

Now imagine something similar happening today in the home country of people like Zuck and Musk. It’s unlikely there would be any threat to their life. They might lose a chunk of their wealth, but they’re sufficiently diversified that they’ll still be among the wealthiest people in the world no matter what happens.

Re: Silicon Valley misreads science fiction and undermines democracy

#186

The government has expanded by any objective measure: From 20% of GDP to 40% of GDP today From a 34 regulatory agencies/offices to 77 today. From 5 percent of occupations needing a license in 1950 to 23 percent today From zero federal environmental review in 1950 to 26 months today for major projects. From almost zero collective bargaining agreements in the public sector in 1950 to approximately 36 percent of public…

> From 20% of GDP to 40% of GDP today

Yeah, let's cut where all that spending went- medicaid, medicare, social security, and welfare...oh

How do you cut any of these without everyone losing their minds?

Re: Silicon Valley misreads science fiction and undermines democracy

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've seen a lot of bloat, corruption, & massive inefficiency [in government]. To what extent is this due to the public nature of the organisations and to what extent is it just the size of them? Are private organisations of similar sizes free from such bloat, corruption and inefficiency? I feel like people often give "businesses" a pass on this. Government projects that are over budget, especially IT-related ones a…

One issue with private, for-profit organizations is their major focus is “creating shareholder value”, which is apparently the modern way of saying “making money”. That, along with competition (if applicable, see below), drives them towards minimizing costs, increasing efficiency, and innovating. Government has the major focus of taking money, and largely spending it arbitrarily. It’s inarguable that the US Federal G…

> That, along with competition (if applicable, see below), drives them towards minimizing costs, increasing efficiency, and innovating.

Highly debatable. Not making a profit on paper (or moving it to low tax-environments) is a great way to dodge paying taxes. Innovation is a side effect of competition, not of profit-seeking. Plenty of examples of oligopolies and monopolies where innovation ground to a halt in favor of siloization, buying up competitors, dark patterns, regulatory capture, etc.

The right way too look at this is that the organisation of private industry creates a selection pressure on "making money" (not profit!), with the minimum being "able to cover costs" and thus stimulates evolution of strategies to do so. Like in biological evolution, there are many, many pathological situations that can occur.

> Government has the major focus of taking money, and largely spending it arbitrarily.

This is false. The US is a bad example because it has an incredibly corrupt political system, especially since Citizens United. In general in most modern developed democracies spending by the government is supported democratically to a very large extent. That is not to say that 80% of citizens support each bit of spending, but for 95% of the things where money is spent by the government, a majority agrees that money needs to be spent there. The word "arbitrarily" is definitely not warranted.

> would you characterize Amazon as bloated, corrupt, and inefficient, despite being an effective monopoly?

Don't know, yes, and don't know.

For corruption, I think it is necessary to determine how it would even look like for Amazon. Corruption in government is often "favoring entities friendly to the people making the decisions over objectively better options". I'd argue that that is wholly accepted in private enterprises and even encouraged. A "quid pro quo" in private enterprise is just "a business deal" or "customer relations". "Nepotism" is just "helping your friends out". Etc. I would assume that things like that are very, very common within Amazon.

With regard to bloated/inefficient: This is incredibly hard to make definitive statements on without having worked there and having a lot of intimate knowledge, so I'll refrain from doing so. I think it is, but I don't know.

Re: Silicon Valley misreads science fiction and undermines democracy

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy to give businesses a pass on internal inefficiency because you don't typically need to do business with any particular company in order to live your life and businesses don't tax you in order to pay for that inefficiency like governments do. If a business is inefficient and has projects that go over budget, that's not my problem in the same way it is if the city government where I live does.

It's more about making a fair assessment of whether servicing a market via private or public enterprises is more or less efficient. What you mention is a comparison between different markets, not a fair comparison of the same market run either publicly or privately. Health care insurance companies definitely "tax" you for their inefficiencies (through higher costs) and they are definitely something you "need to do bu…

Health insurance is so regulated and so intertwined with public policy aims, that ostensibly private health care companies are themselves essentially an arm of the government. Indeed, the fact that I "have to do business with" them is itself a consequence of particularly-complicated government regulation. The American health insurance system is one of the most unpleasant (sets of) bureaucracies I personally have to deal with, especially because I have changed jobs a lot recently which entails losing and then regaining employer-benefit insurance (which itself really annoys me - I wish I could just pay for ordinary health care in a way completely unrelated to my job and that my job had nothing to do with). I don't have a grand theory of how best to reform the entire American health insurance system, but I'm in favor of doing so; and I suspect that a better system would look a lot more like removing the insurance component of it in more contexts, and having more medical procedures paid for out of pocket at point of use by ordinary people - which is something I try to do right now anyway when I can.

Re: Silicon Valley misreads science fiction and undermines democracy

#189

This was a fascinating interview, and there were a lot of ideas packed into it. Honestly, it makes me want to read her book. That said, I disagree with a lot of her conclusions. Contra her assertions, I believe that technological change is the principal cause of historical change. Lawrence Lessig wrote Code is Law, which highlights how specific software system decisions constrained the available legal regimes that co…

> there were a lot of ideas packed into it One could equally say that it is all over the place. > This was a fascinating interview Can you give us one or two new insights you gained from it?

I very sure that she would disagree with my attempt at summarizing her ideas, nevertheless, I think her key insight is that technology is corroding democracy because:

1. Technology companies are subsuming services traditionally supplied by the state.

2. Technology promises enhanced democracy (Twitter as a town square, or the Mac as a fight against Big Brother) but ends up degrading it instead (wealthy/powerful voices drown out others in a global arena).

3. Tech entrepreneurs are inspired by the grand society-changing concepts of sci-fi, but are either picking the wrong (harmful) parts or misunderstanding the true consequences.

As I said, I don't agree with her on this, mostly because it's a very subjective perspective. She has a certain view of an ideal society and criticizes deviations from that.

I find it fascinating because it raises good points. She paints a vivid picture of the modern world--I just think it is incomplete.

Re: Silicon Valley misreads science fiction and undermines democracy

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And there it is, posted on X. BTW, if I owned X, I would also not allow pictures of mutilated people or sexual content. The previous incarnation of Twitter did not allow that either, but did censor right wing content and anything that disagreed with Fauci covid policy.

So what was your considered alternative to Fauci Covid policy I wonder

Fauci was given a blanket pardon for what he did, and pled the 5th on any questions about his role.
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