The room the economy can't see • Hacker News Board

Re: The room the economy can't see

#181

Post by infecto » Fri, Jun 19, 2026, 3:35 PM UTC

eszed wrote: post #169

infecto wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not convinced any other entity can do “social good” on average better than some form of a market. The simpler explanation here is that board games are still a niche hobby and not a lot of folks play them to require a third space. And these third spaces generally still exist but they require some organization. The point of my comment is I don’t agree with the article. Back to what I said. Kids don’t even play out…

> Kids don’t even play outside anymore and I don’t think it’s because the market took away third spaces I agree with this, but I think it reinforces GP's point that what's missing is time : slack in the day. I grew up playing outside with all the neighborhood kids, and the critical enabler was that there were always adults around during the after-school hours. Not actively hanging out with us, or even closely supervi…

I don’t know if I can come to that conclusion. Certainly there some grain of a truth there but even when the parents are home kids are not out exploring. At least in America there is an obsession for experience maxing with kids. I don’t know if it’s a time problem or a shift in attitudes.

Re: The room the economy can't see

#182

Post by treis » Fri, Jun 19, 2026, 3:37 PM UTC

multjoy wrote: post #31

infecto wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or what if the average consumer wants to live a different life than what you want? I long for the memories of my childhood where I spent it outside for hours on end or when I had the opportunity to use the phone line to use the internet but I am not fully convinced what people what are third spaces. It’s hard to answer and I think partially for better or worse why markets are often a useful tool to o help figure it o…

What people generally want is time, and then if you have time you obviously need to spend it somewhere. If not work or home, then literally a third space. >t’s hard to answer and I think partially for better or worse why markets are often a useful tool to o help figure it out The point of the article is that the markets are blind to this sort of social good.

We have more time than ever. Adults just choose to use it arguing on the Internet instead of building a free 3rd space for teens.

Re: The room the economy can't see

#183

Post by armchairhacker » Fri, Jun 19, 2026, 3:39 PM UTC

readgrounded wrote: post #61

As a parent, I've always wished that something like that would exist in the united states. I live in a nice town in the northeast but kids hang out at a local dunkin donuts or gas station or cvs. We have some of the highest property tax rates in the country and families move here specifically for the school system so there are a lot of young kids and there are a few playgrounds for younger kids but for 10-18 year old…

It existed in my old town, although I think it got shut down.

If many people with kids move into a town, they can create it by voting in the town government and/or pooling together money.

Re: The room the economy can't see

#184

Post by putzdown » Fri, Jun 19, 2026, 3:39 PM UTC

This is a great article, and I've never seen the problem explained better. The solution doesn't make sense, though, and this is almost but not quite obvious in the article by virtue of how well it has stated the problem. The problem with basic income is that it provides people with cash but does not change the underlying supply-demand system. To get the lokal (the room) to work you needed more than cash: you needed a desire for teens to be happy and engaged, the will to help them get there, a sense of what might help them, leadership to set it up, attract them, and keep it going, and then, yes, money to pay rent. If all you provide is the money, you will get people spending more money on the usual things the economy "sees": phones, video games, amusing t-shirts. What you have around the lokal in the story is actually not merely basic income fed into the existing economy: you actually have a separate economy. The separate economy works differently because it sees differently, it has different demands, different desires. The society as a whole (as embodied here by the government, thankfully—though not all governments are predictably good-willed in this way) wants the teens to thrive, to provide for them, to pay for them, to guide them with modest leadership. Though individuals, and the regular markets, cannot think about the teenagers—they don't have the bandwidth, they don't have the time, they have diffusion of responsibility, etc—the society can pool its interests and act upon its collective interest through the market. This may not be the only way to "cut across" the market, to do collectively what no set of individuals will do, but it's one way. So we definitely want to solve the problem: we want to organize, lead, preserve, and fund things that are of collective value but that the market cannot see. Giving individuals a basic income, however, doesn't accomplish that. I wish it did, but it doesn't. It puts the money into the usual demand centers—individuals needing to pay rent and transportation costs and go on dates and so forth—that live within the "blind" economy.

Re: The room the economy can't see

#185

Post by cogman10 » Fri, Jun 19, 2026, 3:39 PM UTC

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #172

cogman10 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The primary issue is the people that live in "no poors allowed" area can literally push the poors out of a voting area and thus use their "no poors allowed" policies to take over local governments. Which ultimately allows them to expand the "no poors allowed" zones. Another major issue is there's a false impression about what's profitable when it comes to property ownership. That, in turn, drives up the price of prop…

You got the diagnosis right but I’m not convinced voting would change anything - even though it’s definitely true that it could matter, most of the structural issues are upstream of the ballot aka who gets to be on the ballot in the first place is the real problem “If voting changed anything they wouldn’t let us do it” - Emma Goldman

Who gets on the ballot is determined by voting.

I'm not going to lie, I'm not deluded enough to think voting will (often) bring change quickly. I don't even have a lot of hope in the likelihood of it working. However, it's not nothing and it's something everyone can and should do.

Politics is a major part of all aspects of life and you'll do yourself no favors by completely opting out because it's hopeless.

Re: The room the economy can't see

#186

Post by dh2022 » Fri, Jun 19, 2026, 3:41 PM UTC

inigyou wrote: post #132

dh2022 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t follow. Your first sentence says you do not care about trash incinerators, presumably next to your house. Your second sentence says you care about the smell. Trash incinerators are very smelly. You are contradicting yourself. I don’t get it.

But if someone invented a new type that didn't smell, it should be allowed. Regulate consequences, not causes. The power substation down the road is disguised as a brick house, because the rule was ultimately about maintaining the look of the area and not about forbidding power substations.

Much better explanation-thank you!

Re: The room the economy can't see

#187

Post by infecto » Fri, Jun 19, 2026, 3:42 PM UTC

frameset wrote: post #148

infecto wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not convinced any other entity can do “social good” on average better than some form of a market. The simpler explanation here is that board games are still a niche hobby and not a lot of folks play them to require a third space. And these third spaces generally still exist but they require some organization. The point of my comment is I don’t agree with the article. Back to what I said. Kids don’t even play out…

> The simpler explanation here is that board games are still a niche hobby The article says "games", which I took to be more likely to be video games. These are teenagers after all. And if they're safe and goofing around gaming in a youth club, they're less likely to be doing antisocial behaviour on the street.

Ok video games then. I am not sure video gaming in person in a group setting is popular with modern youth. Same outcome to me.

Re: The room the economy can't see

#188

Post by amanaplanacanal » Fri, Jun 19, 2026, 3:43 PM UTC

the_sleaze_ wrote: post #173

hombre_fatal wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There should be a place for people, especially teens, to gather without a bunch of woo woo baggage. I found church incredibly isolating as a kid because we weren’t there just to be, we were there under this expectation that we were partaking in some superstition. The article already points out a room that the kids were enjoying without religious crap imposed on them. We need solutions beyond bolting on these things t…

I think you misunderstand, the 3rd space should be at a church. One in my community does this for teens where they just hang out and do homework after school for 2 hours.

It has been a few decades since I attended church, but in my teenage years they did none of this. The only time I saw the building in use was Sunday morning.

Looking at their website it's hard to tell. Their calendar doesn't show any activities like that, but maybe you have to be plugged into the congregation to know. They appear to be a very left-leaning Evangelical organization now. I didn't even know there was such a thing.

Re: The room the economy can't see

#189

Post by multjoy » Fri, Jun 19, 2026, 3:43 PM UTC

infecto wrote: post #48

multjoy wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What people generally want is time, and then if you have time you obviously need to spend it somewhere. If not work or home, then literally a third space. >t’s hard to answer and I think partially for better or worse why markets are often a useful tool to o help figure it out The point of the article is that the markets are blind to this sort of social good.

I am not convinced any other entity can do “social good” on average better than some form of a market. The simpler explanation here is that board games are still a niche hobby and not a lot of folks play them to require a third space. And these third spaces generally still exist but they require some organization. The point of my comment is I don’t agree with the article. Back to what I said. Kids don’t even play out…

Why do you think these are board games? The article is describing a youth club, for which there is no market as there is no profit to be made from it.

Re: The room the economy can't see

#190

Post by amanaplanacanal » Fri, Jun 19, 2026, 3:46 PM UTC

ponector wrote: post #119

occz wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Radical concept: you could provide UBI in the form of housing, food and transportation

Food and transportation is extremely cheap nowadays. Big bag of rice is couple dollars and a bicycle is a 100$. Oh, people don't want affordable food but a 20-buck burrito and a 100k truck of ridiculous size?

If your city is bikable, that's terrific!