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The Last Technical Interview

steve-yegge.medium.com

181–190 of 291 posts

Re: The Last Technical Interview

#181
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> A standard interview loop kills an entire work day, and is preceded by phone interviews that eat several hours. Properly budgeted work samples are strictly better from the candidate's time perspective, not to mention that you can do them from your couch rather than under flourescent lights in a confeence room. Yes, standard interview loops also discriminate, and the more time they take, the more discriminatory the…

Provisional employment only makes sense if you work remotely and have full benefits (esp. healthcare). Moving is costly.

A committed or indefinite term of employment is itself a benefit, so if you're going to work on a temporary basis you should expect contractor returns, not FTE comp; revise your baseline up 150%-200%.

Nobody does this, of course, but then provisional employment is a silly idea to begin with.

Re: The Last Technical Interview

#182
I don't know if it's the same in the US, but every job in Australia generally comes with a 3-6 month probationary period where employment can be terminated for basically any (non-protected) reason with little notice. I've observed that the option to do so is seldom used - probably because there is not usually much incentives for managers to decrease their number of reports unless there's serious problems.

Most places still interview. Because hiring someone for 3-6 months is still an expense. For large companies, onboarding can take many weeks before you're even thinking about being productive. Interviews don't need to be 100% accurate. They need to be time-efficient and an ok filter to prevent hiring the worst people.

I don't see how a bad job market is going to make skilled people be willing to intern in order to get employment. Employment is a market, if demand goes down, then the reaction will be that price goes down.

The reason students are willing to intern is because the supply is so high and demand so low that you can effectively hire them for nothing (or next to nothing). The interns know that on completion the internship will upgrade them to a new category with new supply/demand. It's the same reason they are willing to pay large amounts for a university degree.

So interviewing will stay the same. If demand collapses, we will see wages drop, and I imagine the supply of software people will react through early retirement, career switching and reduction of people choosing it as a career before we see an upheaval of hiring methods.

Re: The Last Technical Interview

#183

I don't know if it's the same in the US, but every job in Australia generally comes with a 3-6 month probationary period where employment can be terminated for basically any (non-protected) reason with little notice. I've observed that the option to do so is seldom used - probably because there is not usually much incentives for managers to decrease their number of reports unless there's serious problems. Most places…

That probation period never ends in the us. You can be fired at any time for nearly any reason.

Re: The Last Technical Interview

#184
> Mostly I just want you to come around on the diagnosis, and agree that we need to fix it properly for the first time in 50 years. [...] At Google, rather than putting a little black desk on every interview loop, they just assumed all the interviewers had their heads up their arses (an evidence-based assumption), [...] People are not allowed to question whether the interview process is valid. Challenging it is akin to casting aspersions on the entire engineering staff. First of all, how dare you?

A scoping/guidance suggestion to start: Is the problem of improving hiring more tractable if you don't try to solve it for Google?

What if Google is hopelessly tainted with biases, from having run almost every single person there through a process that you acknowledge is a horrific load of poo. Which not only means the process has become a religion/frathouse that people are proud to have been accepted into, and will defend fiercely, but also greatly determines the strengths and weaknesses you have to work with, if you want to get them to do anything else.

What if you instead start with smaller companies that don't have the baggage of FAANG, and look at their requirements, which may include some mix of (off the top of my head): prior experience, learns whatever is needed, creative/innovative, works as a team member, aligned with company success, professionalism, good for morale, good for catalyst, will have some loyalty during the harder stretches or when tempted by a little more money.

It would be nice if, instead of many 2-person startups making their first hire with the assumption that they should mimic the known-bad processes of megacorps (often based on their own FAANG-oriented interview prep in college), the megacorps were desperately trying to figure out how to hire as smartly and genuinely as SMBs, but at FAANG scale and with all the FAANG legacy workforce biases clawing them down.

Re: The Last Technical Interview

#185

I don't understand how a failing stamp for a campfire is good for the interviewee. It signals that they weren't good enough to get hired. Why would they want to parade that around?

I had the same thought. "I didn't get hired at X! I didn't get hired at Y!" It's like how people write ex-Google, ex-Amazon in their headlines but worse: failed-OpenAI, couldn't-get-in-to-Anthropic. Let's all get around the campfire and sing kumbaya

It used to be a thing in India, I have read, that people would want to associate themselves with a prestigious university, even if they dropped out. It would be written like this (made-up example):

B.A. Political Science, Bangalore University (failed)

Re: The Last Technical Interview

#186
Well, campfire method sounds easy in the blog post only.

You need an NDA from a candidate (many would not like to risk - what if someone gets job on the competing company and is sued for revealing some secrets from the campfire interview process).

In many cases interviewee would need to get a laptop from the company, as there are specific requirements about data security (disc encryption, usage of solutions like Fortinet or Zscaler), be added to company SAP to get access to the resources (Office, Teams, etc.), company need to purchase licenses for Office, Github, Jira, etc.

Surely hiring is hard, surely there are false positives and false negatives, but fixing this requires hell a lot of resources and organizational changes and costs.

Re: The Last Technical Interview

#187

The "provisional employment" idea sounds good at first, until you think about how it would actually work in practice. You have 100 applicants for 1 position. Which one do you provisionally hire? Ah of course, we have to do a traditional interview loop to evaluate 10 candidates before we can pick one. So you do the traditional interview loop, and then you have 6 months of provisional employment. You haven't replaced a…

In a different life, I went through multiple interview stages at a FAANG company. In between the sessions, we got to talk to some of the (future) managers. One of them told me that this whole interview process is broken, we should all just be hired temporarily and see how that goes (akin to what Yegge is proposing). The batch had maybe 30 people. Probably not easy to place all of them, but certainly doable.

Re: The Last Technical Interview

#188

This kind of thinking is why a lot of market place startups fail. You have two parties engaging with each other in a subpar way, and your solution is to make things better for one party (hiring side) and significantly worse for the other (candidates). Trying to convince candidates that this is good for them, won't make it so. Eg: > Every stamp that you hand out, pass or fail, leaves a candidate richer than they showe…

Yes! At some point, the author even complains about the (weaker) US law for employee on how it's a mess to fire somebody, but easy to let go from an internship. So much about stability that employees seek.

A mess to fire someone? Every state except Montana lets employers fire without giving a reason.

Re: The Last Technical Interview

#189
I like take home projects the candidates then need to present and answer questions about. LLMs just mean you can be more ambitious here (though you should pay for their tokens).

The problem with provisional employment is that it can take quite awhile for a new hire to be productive. In a complex FAANG environment I'd wager it's about six months before they're not a net drag on the team and maybe 1-2 years until they're close to fully productive. These are complex not just technologically but organizationally and there are tons of hidden rules and micro-decisions that are the difference between a project stalling vs moving forward.

Re: The Last Technical Interview

#190

I gave the feedback at one Google interview that they should send Google employees through to see how many get hired. Good to see they basically tried that. The conclusion at the end that bringing someone on board is the ideal method is true I'm sure, but even that runs into the issue that employee evaluation is an even worse situation than the interview process. You can openly see some managers panic when they reali…

It is not necessarily bad if people hired cannot make it through. Reasons: 1. Standards got higher. Luckily if you got in early and proved yourself you are OK. But doesn't mean you would pass the current interview. 2. A marathon runner (with rare exceptions) can't run a marathon on a random day. They train for a specific date. Same with interview prep.

If I read the article correctly, they handed the hiring committee /their own/ anonymized packets and the committee chose to only hire 1/3 of themselves. That mean numer 2 is not the case. Presumably the hiring committee prepared for their interviews of they passed their rounds.

Number 1 can still be true, and likely is. But then what's the point of using dated packets to test the hiring committees calibration?

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