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Various LLM Smells

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181–190 of 312 posts

Re: Various LLM Smells

#181

> The LLM generated writing obviously felt significantly better than my own writing. A general pattern for LLMs is that they look really good at things you are bad at. What that means is that if you find yourself thinking of its output as significantly better than yours in a particular domain, there's a high chance that you are not equipped to judge that quality effectively.

> A general pattern for LLMs is that they look really good at things you are bad at. This is true for coding, too, which I think, to a large degree, might explain the polarized differences in opinions on HN about the quality of LLM-produced code. You have the 1. "AI produces code better than I could possibly write, one shots things it would take me days to do, and has made me 10X more productive!" camp, and you have…

Yup, pretty much.

The hard part too is it's not like you can just learn the basics and be able to tell good code apart from bad -- the more you learn to code, the more intricate your understanding of good code is. It's like becoming a good writer; just knowing grammar and spelling doesn't make your writing interesting. Not to mention that there's just a lot of bad advice out there that you can't recognize as bad advice if you're not a regular practitioner. Like, "Clean Code" is IMO a terrible book, but a ton of people follow it because it has the sheen of respectability.. until, hopefully, they learn some new patterns and realize those old ones aren't very good. But you pick these things up with experience and doing the work! Otherwise if you're just reading other peoples opinions, you'll see a bunch of people say "Clean Code is great" and a bunch of other people say it's rubbish, and you'll have no way to know who you should listen to. (If you disagree with me on Clean Code the book that's fine -- I'm just using it to make a point -- sub in a different book/ideology if it suits you)

I think looking at an LLM code and thinking you're now a coder is like watching a someone play guitar and think you can just pick up a guitar and play a song. The truth is, if you want to be good, you have to do the work.

One of the things I hate about AI is that we're going to have a generation of "programmers" that are absolutely shit at programming, create problems for everyone else, and will have absolutely no idea how bad they are. And they'll probably never get better, because you can't get better by just asking claude to do shit for you. And then the LLMs themselves will probably start to degrade because they'll be trained on the slop since it'll heavily outnumber handwritten code..

Re: Various LLM Smells

#182
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone way more eloquent than me should write a column titled "Why do we read?" Way back in the past (around 30 years ago) I remember reading an article on "how to read a book" or a similar subject. They argued that, you should not skip the acknowledgments, preface and other "personal" related sections of a book, because it was there where you got a glimpse of the person that was writing the book. The idea being tha…

> Way back in the past (around 30 years ago) I remember reading an article on "how to read a book" or a similar subject. They argued that, you should not skip the acknowledgments, preface and other "personal" related sections of a book, because it was there where you got a glimpse of the person that was writing the book. The idea being that, you should had in mind that the person writing was explaining something thro…

Yeah, but when we talk about food, there are different tastes, and there is stuff like "you can also use it as a doorstop". Fine, but that doesn't make a doorstop food.

Re: Various LLM Smells

#183
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're contradicting yourself How? > you mention things that are very clearly not end products but thoughts and visions behind them that only lead to end products Thoughts and visions are much more closely intertwined with end products (in fact, likely supercede them) than some random code review is, so I'm not seeing where the contradiction lies. > that's the main thing he was being judged on for decades now Linus…

Either I'm bad at communicating today or you're bad at reading, because you're now using my points, so I'm not sure what to make out of it. Let me repeat myself then: > Code review is (...) mostly about communication between people, convincing them to your ways of doing things (or getting convinced by others) and communicating needs. It's what keeps projects running and what makes people improve their skills. The way…

> Either I'm bad at communicating today or you're bad at reading

Could be both :)

The way I look at it is like this, and you could call this my thesis: I do not categorically think that code in itself is primarily relevant to us looking at a "software engineer" and saying "wow, she's good." The product (the Linux kernel, in Torvalds' case) is, on the other hand, what actually matters. I think we're getting caught up on the idea of a code review; a code review can serve many purposes, as a code review is basically just people talking about the code, the product, their feelings, and so on. Sure, sometimes it's like "this `i` should be a `j`", but other times it's "this should serve feature X, not feature Y."

Overall, I don't think Torvalds is judged by his code quality. And the snippet I cited is the man himself saying "I don't write code anymore" so I took that at face value, even though my conviction stands wether or not he actually does still write code. I don't think anyone actually cared that much about his code quality (maybe with the caveat that the kernel didn't crash).

PS: I could be totally wrong, and this is an interesting & stimulating conversation, regardless.

Re: Various LLM Smells

#184
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A general pattern for LLMs is that they look really good at things you are bad at. This is true for coding, too, which I think, to a large degree, might explain the polarized differences in opinions on HN about the quality of LLM-produced code. You have the 1. "AI produces code better than I could possibly write, one shots things it would take me days to do, and has made me 10X more productive!" camp, and you have…

Well, I have bad news for camp 1.. It's bad if they work in a part of the industry where code quality or efficiency matters. That's maybe 10% of the total though.

I think it matters everywhere -- just because some fields get away with making trash doesn't mean that they're not vulnerable to people taking their lunch by making something distinctly-not-trash. People put up with a lot when there's lock-in, but there's a breaking point. (I say now using a linux desktop about 90% of the time now because windows has become such a fucking disaster)

Re: Various LLM Smells

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A general pattern for LLMs is that they look really good at things you are bad at. This is true for coding, too, which I think, to a large degree, might explain the polarized differences in opinions on HN about the quality of LLM-produced code. You have the 1. "AI produces code better than I could possibly write, one shots things it would take me days to do, and has made me 10X more productive!" camp, and you have…

Eric S. Raymond has basically stopped writing code by hand altogether. He consistently delivers high quality code without intervening to fix the LLM's output himself, much faster than he would have been able to alone. This is very bad news for camp 2 because it means one of three things: 1) he is extraordinarily lucky 2) he is extraordinary brilliant at manipulating LLMs 3) you really are "holding it wrong" and you a…

Being nerd-famous does not mean one is a good coder.

Re: Various LLM Smells

#186

> The LLM generated writing obviously felt significantly better than my own writing. A general pattern for LLMs is that they look really good at things you are bad at. What that means is that if you find yourself thinking of its output as significantly better than yours in a particular domain, there's a high chance that you are not equipped to judge that quality effectively.

the other day there was a hackernews comment about ai-generated music, and this poster claimed that a friend generated ai music and got as much enjoyment as actual ones composed by musicians. I suppose this falls under the same camp..

Re: Various LLM Smells

#188

> The LLM generated writing obviously felt significantly better than my own writing. A general pattern for LLMs is that they look really good at things you are bad at. What that means is that if you find yourself thinking of its output as significantly better than yours in a particular domain, there's a high chance that you are not equipped to judge that quality effectively.

So what does this mean in practice, though? Let's say you are correct. You ask an LLM to write something for you, and to you it looks really, really good. So based on your conjecture, that means I am not a very good writer. Ok, but how does that change what I should do? If I am not a very good writer, that means an LLM IS actually better than me, even if it might not be objectively good to an expert writer. My two ch…

Well, the third choice is to develop as a person and become better at writing. Which you do by doing some crappy writing and learning from it.

Re: Various LLM Smells

#190
post #9
post #6

It's kind of interesting how genuinely hard it is to get models to deviate from basically all of these tropes. You can straight up tell it "I hate that card design, do something different, get creative!" and it'll do something either (a) ugly as sin (clearly just essentially a random walk through parameters) or (b) some same-y derivation of that card. In coding, I've noticed a few tropes as well: everything is a "con…

If claude says "load bearing" once more, I think I'll vomit.

You could stop using it first I suppose
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