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UK government replaces Palantir software with internally-built refugee system

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181–190 of 219 posts

Re: UK government replaces Palantir software with internally-built refugee system

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not “ideological mistrust of the public sector.” It’s that government jobs aren’t subject to market forces so you need some sort of external controls, like pay scales. FDR, who can hardly be accused of distrusting the public sector, emphasized the importance of public control over government sector salaries: https://www.fdrlibrary.org/unions

Consultancies don’t appear to be subject to market forces either, judging by their complete dearth of talent and expertise. In other words, “rent seeking”. The only protection against pilfering of the public coffers appears to be strong cultural opposition to it, so exactly the opposite of what’s happening in the US, for example.

this is absolutely true. I can spin up a government consultancy and get inside the system so that I can low bid contracts, get extensions and not provide any meaningful service at all, that's a comfortable parasitic life. I worked in the US Dod and there was no meaningful quality difference between the 2x salary contractors with their additional 2x overhead than the lifers.

we can bemoan that the government isn't being efficient, but involving people with even less oversight whose only goal is to extract as much from the public coffer as possible is not a magic bullet that gets the public more for their money.

Re: UK government replaces Palantir software with internally-built refugee system

#182
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked in the federal government once. Unfortunately, it really is that bad. They took weeks-month just to provision me a laptop.

That happens at literally every company I contract with (that requires I use their equipment). At my current gig I couldn't start until they had a laptop for me, and then it took another month to access to the code. Every year they auto delete contractor credentials, unless the director in charge of your contract says no. One year he missed the email and I found myself without access to the code for days while I was…

I work in a bureaucracy of similar size and could never imagine something like that happening where I work.

Corporations might be mismanaged, but ultimately they have a variety of price signals they must be responsive to or die. No such thing among the feds and it shows.

Re: UK government replaces Palantir software with internally-built refugee system

#183
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it obvious? Because governments aren't good at management. There's no incentive or feedback loop. A company goes out of business if it's operationally a mess or doesn't deliver value. Not always but it's highly correlated. Governments face no pressure like this. Maybe mild pressure on the very local level. But when you get to the national level, orgs like the Pentagon misplace trillions of dollars with not so m…

The irony in your example is the modern Pentagon is largely a collection of private companies.

Everything is eventually private. Each employee is a private individual. That doesn't matter. What matters is how money is collected, and if it's forced out of people by tax, instead of being handed over voluntarily, there's no incentive to be good.

Re: UK government replaces Palantir software with internally-built refugee system

#184
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never understood why nation states pay outside companies for this stuff. You need the expertise to actually evaluate what you're getting anyway. Incentives are in no way aligned. At the state level you have the scale to do it in house.

They do this because the UK is a failing nation state (it's poorer than the USA state of Missouri) that needs to make goodwill with any country willing to trade with it. So of course they will go full tilt into USA branch of neoliberalism. Expect them to talk about privatizing more of the NHS to "save the budget" too come 2030.

> They do this because the UK is a failing nation state (it's poorer than the USA state of Missouri)

Can you cite this, please?

Re: UK government replaces Palantir software with internally-built refugee system

#185

Having spent time working in UK healthcare tech, I never understood why everyone was lining up to throw buckets of money at Palantir. Quite apart from being obviously evil and so on, none of their solutions were actually very good. Unfortunately, it's hard to escape the feeling that friends in high places, some lobbying and some er... reciprocal back scratching might have been instrumental. See also senior staff at N…

I say this as somebody who has worked vendor side in UK public sector for a number of years. It's policy. It's official Whitehall policy. As a department you can't hire programmers at £100k/year, because that pushes them way, way higher than civil service bands allow. But you can pay a "Systems Integrator" - a consultancy like Cap Gemini, Deloitte, Fujitsu - £600/day for the same programmer in the same seat. So, £100…

I contracted for ICL around the time it was acquired by Fujitsu, working opposite the Post Office developers, some of whom were still learning C++ as they went.

I later worked at the Department of Health during the Blair-era restructuring, when management layers multiplied, Trust structures became increasingly fragmented, and PFI debt created long-term financial drag. I also encountered someone trying to sell internal documents, which says plenty about the governance culture at the time.

Then I saw the BBC go through outsourcing to Fujitsu, with assets sold off and then effectively contracted back.

Across utilities, government, healthcare and broadcasting, the pattern has been depressingly consistent: short-term accounting savings, long-term operational debt, and layers of complexity presented as reform. Problems are rarely solved. They are moved around, rebranded, outsourced, and made to look resolved until the next team inherits the consequences.

Capgemini, Fujitsu and the usual suspects do well out of it. The public sector gets another five-year spreadsheet win, while the real-world cost lands years later with someone else.

All rather depressing when you see it first hand and many stories I dare not tell, from Ministers and their `shadows`(what their assistants called), upper goverment stories and even from infosec days involving banks and financial intertutions and how links that should never be there were found. Networks connected by undocumented lines and other things that just make you go WTF at levels of disbelief, even No.10 dealings that again, best left unspoken.

Just a system that focuses on being seen to care, over actually careing and if you do care, you are either broken or scared for life.

Oh well, be another decade or two to unpick the debt bombing this time around and those that cause it, never held to account as seagull managment is now the norm in many walks of life along with doing little waiting for pensions with pension surfing. This that care, die, those who don't get promoted on lies.

I will write a book to be published when i'm gone(soon) and just not care then, until then, I care, just wished those with power actually did.

Re: UK government replaces Palantir software with internally-built refugee system

#186
Meanwhile:

"NHS England has granted external staff from companies including Palantir “unlimited access” to identifiable patient data while working on a part of its flagship data platform. "

https://archive.ph/UyZtI

What could possibly go wrong?

Re: UK government replaces Palantir software with internally-built refugee system

#187
post #114

Having spent time working in UK healthcare tech, I never understood why everyone was lining up to throw buckets of money at Palantir. Quite apart from being obviously evil and so on, none of their solutions were actually very good. Unfortunately, it's hard to escape the feeling that friends in high places, some lobbying and some er... reciprocal back scratching might have been instrumental. See also senior staff at N…

you're just pointing out elite capture & corruption that tends to be pervasive in the UK. when I was in the UK my landlord was a politician. his peers are politicians. an inflated contract gets given out to a private company - no one complains. yet to give people working in councils, civic sector decent | market rate salaries. now everyone complains. I'm not even gonna go into the whole taxation scam.

Not just the UK. Happens everywhere, certainly in the US as well. Pair that with governments granting themselves the power to print infinite amount of money and you get all sorts of causal relationships like increasing inequality, wages becoming disconnected from $ measured productivity, and much more.

The data here [1] are for the US but I'd expect it's quite similar for the UK as well, since 1971 is when Bretton Woods ended and the beginning of the era of funny money.

[1] - https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/

Re: UK government replaces Palantir software with internally-built refugee system

#188
post #140
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So, £100k/year = bad, £120k/year via an external consultancy = good. Ding ding ding. This is all driven by ideological mistrust of the public sector, as you've pointed out and people are even defending in the comments.

Just wandering in to this as a relative political bystander, but as I look at the polling out of the UK [0] I see that the party currently leading is some group called "REF" and I gather they did pretty well in the latest round of elections. I assume they're an old-established party who represent the deep contentment the British have with how the public service has been run. I suppose they do seem a little unpopular,…

Reform are the new Trump like, kick the immigrants out party. I don't know if they'd achieve the operational excellence that Trump and DOGE have.

Re: UK government replaces Palantir software with internally-built refugee system

#189
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The issue with this is that this is happening with full support of government employees, and even the courts cooperate to a lesser extent. Why is that an issue? The simplest explanation is that the underlying rate of mental illness is inconveniently high. Which would tally with, as you say: > In fact, nothing is expected at all (other than medical evidence). Also I would take a look at the date when the upcurve sta…

> Why is that an issue? What’s the counterweight to keep the system in check and from growing out of control? If the only message is yes, it sets up a positive feedback loop. Looking back and guessing whether Covid justifies it is post hoc rationalization. It says nothing about the validity of individual claims. Fraud schemes in the same timeframe could benefit just as well.

Plus it just isn't fair. You're making other people work for you without anything in return.

Re: UK government replaces Palantir software with internally-built refugee system

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct, the main reason why private sector is used is nothing to do with salary. Productivity hasn't increased in the public sector since 1997 due to massive overhiring and bloat, salaries are probably 20-30% higher than they should be based upon on productivity. And the main cost, which isn't factored into the above tired lobbying arguments you read from "sources" in the Guardian, is pensions. Public-sector pension…

> Productivity hasn't increased in the public sector since 1997 Hmm, in the US the size of the civil service was roughly constant over 20 years, while the population it served grew enormously as well as the amount of service it was supposed to provide.

This isn't the US. Public sector productivity output (in the UK) is measured, it isn't a speculation based upon the population.
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