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Dutch suicide prevention website shares data with tech companies without consent

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Re: Dutch suicide prevention website shares data with tech companies without consent

#181
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maintain and protect the Analytics service This is a pretty broad leash. "To maintain the analytics service we need to make money"

What's the absolute worst thing Google could be doing with that analytics data?

Selling the fact that you visited a suicide prevention website to anyone who cares to buy it. Google analytics knows exactly who you are the second you access a site that uses Analytics.

You don't have to be logged in. You don't even have to be a Google customer. They have IP and browser fingerprinting to uniquely identify people through aggregation of all their sources.

Re: Dutch suicide prevention website shares data with tech companies without consent

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An 11% drop isn't "something works for somebody," it's "it works for a lot of people, substantially more people than it harms, making for a clear net gain." In individual with odd habits is a completely different thing. That comparison is utterly inapt. If you had an entire population that started running the AC at 60 degrees and eating ice cubes all day, and cognition measurably increased by 11%, that would be incre…

To be clear I'm not saying it's not a net gain. It's very clearly a net gain. But, just because it works doesn't mean it's not a capitalism solution using the capitalism hammer of talking to random people behind a phone (which, again, might be a net good thing for some people crisis). So again, I am not against anti-suicide hotlines. I am sincerely happy they help many people. I just think they are very symbolically…

I think you are very, very confused about the definition of capitalism.

Re: Dutch suicide prevention website shares data with tech companies without consent

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is interesting because while the hotline might help some, it can also do significant damage to others depending on what happens after the phone call. Of course, nothing in life is every 100% good for everyone or every situation. While not everyone that calls the hotline is involuntarily committed, I wonder how the data matches up with this finding [1]: > "In this meta-analysis of 100 studies of 183 patient samples…

Are they accounting for the fact that people who are admitted with suicidal thoughts will tend to be those much more prone to suicide in the first place? It seems obvious, but it doesn't sound like they are. People who come home from the hospital after being admitted for cancer treatment will have a much higher cancer death rate than the general population, but that doesn't imply that hospital treatment is damaging.

> Are they accounting for the fact that people who are admitted with suicidal thoughts will tend to be those much more prone to suicide in the first place?

How certain are you that this is a fact? I agree that is seems like common sense on the surface, but that might not be the case. The closest I could find in the study was this:

> However, the findings should curb enthusiasm for restrictive interventions directed at patients labeled as having high risk of suicide by virtue of demographic or clinical variables. Our figures suggest that 0.28% of all discharged patients can be expected to commit suicide during the first 3 months after discharge. The modest statistical strength of suicide risk assessment means that even patients who are classified as having high risk because of their suicide risk factors will have a low absolute probability of suicide over clinically meaningful time frames, whereas patients with a low risk for suicide will still have a probability of suicide that is many times that in the general community.

It also seems that largest factor, and perhaps a better determinant of severity, is the number of times one is (re)admitted.

> People who come home from the hospital after being admitted for cancer treatment will have a much higher cancer death rate than the general population

How much higher?

Do you think this statement is comparable to cancer treatment?

> Our data suggest that the suicide rates among discharged patients have not decreased in the past 50 years. This is a disturbing finding considering the increase in community psychiatry and the availability of a range of new treatments during this period.

I think this is the take away from the study that is also important:

> However, the very high suicide rates calculated in this study and the known limitations of suicide risk assessment suggest that a focus on clinical risk assessment might mislead clinicians into thinking that some patients can be regarded as having low risk after discharge. Our findings better support the views of authors who believe in a more universal approach to suicide prevention that might focus on periods of high risk but that extends for periods of years.

Also, I need to clarify one thing. I apologize for any confusion. I realized how half-finished my initial comment was. I did not mean to imply the damage from facilities comes from treatments per se, though there are still risks with all treatments. I should have clarified that damage can occur from the systems surrounding the facility. The (incorrect) stigma surrounding admission, the potential police interventions, the medical debt from being admitted, loss of certain rights/job prospects, etc.. Yes, the facilities do help some individuals, that is their purpose, but some people are hesitant to say, call the hotline, out of fear of being committed, which can also be damaging.

Re: Dutch suicide prevention website shares data with tech companies without consent

#184
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you rather not try to help the people that obviously need help?

What if the help they need is just to talk to someone without fear of consequences? If they dispatch you to an institution you could lose your job just when you need money to pay for the bills you'll be sent. With some careers, like being a pilot, you'd never be be to find another job. You'd lose your ability to take out life insurance (even if it was a short temporary depression that you got over, like a side effect…

> What if the help they need is just to talk to someone without fear of consequences?

Is there actually any consequence free conversations? Even Lawyers can break confidentiality in some situations. I'm not saying that the hotline is perfect, I'm saying that it provides a lot of good. I hope you never feel the need to call the hotline, but it's an option that saves a lot of lives.

Re: Dutch suicide prevention website shares data with tech companies without consent

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is interesting because while the hotline might help some, it can also do significant damage to others depending on what happens after the phone call. Of course, nothing in life is every 100% good for everyone or every situation. While not everyone that calls the hotline is involuntarily committed, I wonder how the data matches up with this finding [1]: > "In this meta-analysis of 100 studies of 183 patient samples…

I mean, yeah. Of course. You don't get involuntarily committed if you're not at high risk. What?

Nothing I wrote contradicts that.

Re: Dutch suicide prevention website shares data with tech companies without consent

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I saw a LinkedIn thread just the other day that called it the "suicide prevention industrial complex," and that phrase will stick in my head like "orphan crushing machine" or "leopards eating faces"

What on earth is the "industrial complex" part about this? Outside of pharma pushing pills I'm not sure what other profit-seeking, recursive elements exist in the "suicide prevention industry". Legitimately curious about this - not sure how these words would apply.

Not entirely sure what the GP meant either, but maybe it's like sports betting? Where some companies are heavily advertising and trying to get people to become "responsible gamblers" (addicted), meanwhile, some of those same companies are investing in mental health treatment facilities on the side. Thus, those gambling companies can make money off gambling addicts and when gambling addicts try to quit. As the saying goes, the house always wins.

https://www.barrons.com/articles/sports-betting-problem-gamb...

Re: Dutch suicide prevention website shares data with tech companies without consent

#187
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the absolute worst thing Google could be doing with that analytics data?

Selling the fact that you visited a suicide prevention website to anyone who cares to buy it. Google analytics knows exactly who you are the second you access a site that uses Analytics. You don't have to be logged in. You don't even have to be a Google customer. They have IP and browser fingerprinting to uniquely identify people through aggregation of all their sources.

OK, there is a feasible way this could happen. Google would need to be using IP address plus browser device fingerprinting to identify users who visit Google Analytics sites, and would then need to be packaging that data to sell to advertisers.

I don't believe they do this, partly because if they did it would be something they would want to actively promote as a product to advertisers. Why do the creepy thing if you can't talk about it to make more money?

But technically I do believe it is feasible.

Re: Dutch suicide prevention website shares data with tech companies without consent

#188
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sell it to insurance companies, employers? Use it to target ads of snake oil to vulnerable people?

Sell what to insurance companies? All they have is that there was a hit from an IP at a specific date and time. Any cookies they set will let them tell that the same browser came back an hour later - but won't let them join traffic together across multiple sites.

IP can be correlated with other data to infer the identity. Google ads are everywhere, so Google probably knows, who you are and your IP.

Re: Dutch suicide prevention website shares data with tech companies without consent

#189
post #100
post #32

It's telling, IMO, that Western cultures deals with suicidality with hotlines you can call. It's like some joke from gonzo journalism come to fruition. I don't know what the answer is, but as a person who's been suicidal, for me it wasn't a hotline. It's even more fitting, if not kind of perfect, that said hotlines farm your data and sell it. :chef's kiss: what else is there to say. Like just about everything else, c…

Those hotlines literally drop suicide rates. They wont help everyone, but they do have good track record of helping people.

Many of these people do want someone to talk to 24/7, and they may well be isolated. They are not the only solution but one of them.

One of my friends was turned away from an NHS hospital the year before last and took his own life.

Re: Dutch suicide prevention website shares data with tech companies without consent

#190
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't think that in Netherlands, Germany or France you can live like a normal person if you are, say, depressed or addicted to drugs and don't want to or can't work.

You have no idea what you’re talking about.

Can you fill me in?
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