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Airport Security Is Killing Us

businessweek.com

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Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#181

Post by MartinCron »

tokenadult wrote: post #24

Hear. Hear. I want to be able to walk into an airport with my shoes on and walk calmly to an arrival gate to greet arriving passengers there. And I want to be able to carry a Swiss Army knife in an airline carry-on bag. And I want the terrorists to be attacked relentlessly where they live, so that they have to hide in caves and ride on goats, while Americans and other people in developed countries get to lead civiliz…

Further edit, to reply to the first kind reply

I might be alone in this, but I really prefer replies to replies instead of piling edits on top of edits. Much easier to follow that way.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#182

Post by MartinCron »

Lewisham wrote: post #19
seiji wrote: post #4

What is the answer though? Can you imagine a politician running under a "massively downsize the TSA" banner? Would any existing Washington elected official take up the cause? They can't even repeal the comically silly shoe removal procedure (unless you're under 12 or over 75, because no terr'ist would ever foot kerplode those demographic stereotypes).

Well, you could imagine a politician taking up the cause if the Republican party returned to its small government ideals, rather than "Small government, except when it meets our special interests (which most definitely include defense and scaremongering)" Obama won't do it, because he's shown himself to keep whatever things from Bush are convenient if unsavory, like Guantanamo (saying you're going to close it and act…

I'm not going to argue with your main point, but I think that closing Guantanamo has proven to be more difficult than merely inconvenient.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#183

Post by blibble »

anigbrowl wrote: post #160
gsnedders wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you assume that all terrorists live in places with caves and goats? The CIRA, RIRA, Irrintzi, and many other such organizations are still active. Assuming the big risk of terrorism is Islamic extremism (and originating from the Middle East) is a naïve, American-centric view: plenty of us live our lives more threatened by local separatist groups than by Islamic extremism. The big risk in the UK today is still I…

As an Irish person, I disagree. The IRA had a very specific territorial objective: ending British rule in Northern Ireland. The Taliban are not articulating an alternative approach to Afghan nationalism, they're religious radicals that think it's OK to assassinate 12 year old girls, stone unmarried lovers to death, and behead their political opponents. When the freedoms you're fighting for consist exclusively of oppr…

no, instead the IRA were religious radicals that thought it was OK to place car bombs in Central London, Manchester, and countless other cities, murdering hundreds of innocent people going about their daily business.

The Taliban have a clear military objective too: remove the infidels and their supporters from the country that was formerly theirs.

quite how this is any different from the IRA, semantically or morally, I'm really not sure.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#184

Post by anu_gupta »

joshuahedlund wrote: post #83
anu_gupta wrote: post #13

Tangentially - the thing that most surprised me about this article was reading that over 150,000 Americans have been murdered in less than a decade. I find that number utterly staggering. Wikipedia says that the homicide rate in the US is 4.2 per 100,000, which is more than 2.5 times the rate in Canada and 3.5 times the rate in the UK.

Just something to keep in mind when comparing statistics between countries... The United States is approximately the size/population of Europe, and its individual states are approximately the size/population of European countries. It's always hard for the US to beat every state-sized country, just as there will always be US states with numbers above and below the overall average. The overall European average of 3.5 p…

That European average is for the whole of the geographical entity known as Europe, so I'm not sure how fair the comparison is. The population of Europe as a whole is 2.3 times that of the US. Also the US is a single political entity, with (for the most part) ons set of laws. Many of the Eastern European countries do not fall within a similarly consistent legal framework.

If remove Eastern Europe, then the homicide rates for the rest of Europe are:

Northern Europe 1.5

Southern Europe 1.4

Western Europe 1.0

Conversely, including other parts of the Americas (ie Canada and Central America) massively increases the average homicide rate - Central America's rate is a truly shocking 28.5

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#185

Post by davemel37 »

There is an old Proverb, "Only Our Enemies Truly Know How Many Plots We Foiled."

I hate TSA as much as the next guy, but their presence and efforts could have deterred and foiled thousands of plots you and I would never hear about because they don't even know about them.

Denying the reality of the potential danger airplanes can cause to major population centers, like we saw on 9/11 is foolish. Airport Security May Suck. But, It May Be Saving More Lives Than It's Killing Indirectly.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#186

Post by jackpirate »

enjo wrote: post #103
philwelch wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also important to note that you consent to the search by choosing to travel by air in the United States.

That's such a bad argument. I do no such thing. However, the reality of my profession requires me to fly. So I "consent" only under considerable duress. The choice is literally "put food on the table" or submit to incredibly intrusive security. That's not consent, that's coercion.

The choice is literally "put food on the table" or submit to incredibly intrusive security.

No it's not. You can quit and get a new job. If you can't immediately find a new job, you will be on unemployment and food stamps. You will literally still have food on the table.

Edit: by quit I meant don't get on the plane, resulting in being fired

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#187

Post by anigbrowl »

blibble wrote: post #183
anigbrowl wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an Irish person, I disagree. The IRA had a very specific territorial objective: ending British rule in Northern Ireland. The Taliban are not articulating an alternative approach to Afghan nationalism, they're religious radicals that think it's OK to assassinate 12 year old girls, stone unmarried lovers to death, and behead their political opponents. When the freedoms you're fighting for consist exclusively of oppr…

no, instead the IRA were religious radicals that thought it was OK to place car bombs in Central London, Manchester, and countless other cities, murdering hundreds of innocent people going about their daily business. The Taliban have a clear military objective too: remove the infidels and their supporters from the country that was formerly theirs. quite how this is any different from the IRA, semantically or morally,…

The IRA were not religious radicals. You had a Protestant population whose loyalties lay with the government of the UK and a catholic one whose loyalties lay with the Irish Republic, but this was nothing more than a side effect of Britain adopting a different state religion several centureis ago. Nobody ever solicited or repeated IRA opinions on religious dogma, because they didn't have any. For that matter the IRA wasn't in the habit of bombing Protestant churches in Northern Ireland, but generally attacked military bases and police stations. One Catholic priest was directly involved with the IRA bombing campaign, but this was exceptional, out of hundreds of churches in the region.

The Taliban have a clear military objective too: remove the infidels and their supporters from the country that was formerly theirs.

They were stoning and beheading people and generally running Afghanistan as a medieval hellhole when they were in charge of the place without any miitary opposition, back in the 1990s.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#188

Post by dinedal »

Zimahl wrote: post #180
zanny wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being an invasive empire doesn't make people like you? What an interesting proposition. It might baffle a few dozen suits who run the military industrial complex, before they go back to laughing while wiping their bums with $100 bills of taxpayer money. Same way the pharmaceutical industry, for profit prison industry, and lumber industry (last one is debated plenty) will continue to shove money into politics to keep…

> lumber industry (last one is debated plenty) The lumber industry? You're seriously comparing Big Pharma and for-profit prison companies with the timber industry? I'm not sure if you are talking about America in the 2010s, but the timber industry is tanking. Maybe if you were talking about the 1970s I might peripherally agree. The timber industry is so bad right now that it is cheaper to buy 2x4s to burn in your fir…

I think he included them because they were the original reason for suppressing marijuana, not Big Pharma

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#189

Post by r00fus »

philwelch wrote: post #57
tptacek wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No they're not. The Supreme Court has repeatedly upheld an exemption for searches in the context of airport security under the doctrine of administrative searches, where the state's legitimate interest overrides the cost (to individuals) of the search, and where no one person is singled out by the searches. Your argument doesn't even follow logically, as all the 4th Amendment requires is that searches be "reasonable"…

It's also important to note that you consent to the search by choosing to travel by air in the United States.

Ah, the clickwrap and EULA argument. I hated it back in the 90s when it was introduced.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#190

Post by gasull »

tokenadult wrote: post #24

Hear. Hear. I want to be able to walk into an airport with my shoes on and walk calmly to an arrival gate to greet arriving passengers there. And I want to be able to carry a Swiss Army knife in an airline carry-on bag. And I want the terrorists to be attacked relentlessly where they live, so that they have to hide in caves and ride on goats, while Americans and other people in developed countries get to lead civiliz…

We would be better off if we didn't arm terrorists in the first place, because they end up attacking us.

http://cryptome.org/tim-osman.htm

The US armed the Taliban when they were fighting the Soviet invasion.

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