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How an oil refinery works

construction-physics.com

181–190 of 209 posts

Re: How an oil refinery works

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They have surface reservoirs Sure sounds like potential issues for septic systems > protected watershed areas And they're protected by things like being choosy about approving septic systems I'd imagine > The "ground" is effectively the filter. And it requires so much "ground" to properly "filter", hence the mounds. > The problem is high water table So we both agree there's a high water table, and high water tables…

Gotta love that ivory tower smarmy attitude. >And it requires so much "ground" to properly "filter", hence the mounds. There is no point in building up if the ground is sufficient. MN has basically decided they're not gonna bother considering what that means and just make everyone do mounds at great expense. >So we both agree there's a high water table, and high water tables can give challenges for properly operating…

> MN has basically decided they're not gonna bother considering what that means and just make everyone do mounds at great expense.

Wrong. We just had a septic tank installed at a property in Crow Wing County.

Here are the MPCA rules for septic tanks: https://www.pca.state.mn.us/business-with-us/registered-sewa...

And lastly, I recommend not posting authoritatively about things you do not understand or grasp, thanks. Your posts about permitting and construction in Minnesota are full of errors.

Stormwater runoff is poisonous and stormwater systems are designed to handle a certain amount of water. When you pave a massive dirt lot that soaks up rainwater, that water has to go somewhere. You don’t understand what you’re talking about.

Re: How an oil refinery works

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really a big deal. The numbers are cumulative. The Reliance Brownsville Texas facility will only process 60 million barrels per year. That's 1% of annual US refining capacity. > It's interesting to both see Asian majors and EPCs increasingly dominating the petrochemical chain You really don't want downstream in your backyard, though. The environmental oversight in these countries is...less. Meanwhile, it's a hype…

[flagged]

“especially given that a net new refinery hasn't been built in the US in 50 years.”

Existing large refineries have done some massive expansion projects in the last couple of decades, adding the equivalent of a several new refineries. It is often easier to do this than build a new grass roots refinery.

Example projects:

MPC Garyville +180 MBD (2009) Motiva Port Arthur +325 MBD (2012) XOM Beaumont +250 MBD (2023)

Re: How an oil refinery works

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One place where gas is flared off is landfills. Methane is produced by anaerobic decay and must be burned to reduce its climate impact. One unfortunate consequence of this is bird injury, particularly raptors. They like to perch on the flare stack, and when it flares to life... if they are lucky, only their feathers are damaged and they can be rehabbed. This can probably be ameliorated by design of the stack to avoid…

I know biogas digesters exist, but I am unfamiliar with the economics of such systems. It seems like a better way to deal with the methane than flaring it off, but cheap natural gas in the US might make it uneconomical to do so. I’d be curious if anyone has any insight into that.

Renewable natural gas / bio gas is alive and growing in the US. The economics are supported by California Low Carbon Fuel Standard credits.

Sources include captured landfill gas and bio digesters processing animal manure.

Captured bio gas is injected into adjacent natural gas transmission pipe lines and commingled with chemically identical fossil natural gas.

Re: How an oil refinery works

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know biogas digesters exist, but I am unfamiliar with the economics of such systems. It seems like a better way to deal with the methane than flaring it off, but cheap natural gas in the US might make it uneconomical to do so. I’d be curious if anyone has any insight into that.

Renewable natural gas / bio gas is alive and growing in the US. The economics are supported by California Low Carbon Fuel Standard credits. Sources include captured landfill gas and bio digesters processing animal manure. Captured bio gas is injected into adjacent natural gas transmission pipe lines and commingled with chemically identical fossil natural gas.

The CO2 has to be scrubbed out. This is not necessarily all negative, since if the CO2 is injected underground for sequestration it makes biogas carbon negative.

Re: How an oil refinery works

#185
post #2

This is a really good overview of oil refining. I'll add a few things. 1. The light and heavy distinction is covered by a measure called API gravity [1]. The higher the API gravity, the lighter the crude; 2. Refiners mix different crude types depending on what kind of refined products they want to produce; 3. Heavy crude tends to be less valuable although it's essential for some applications. Lighter crude produces g…

A few corrections. Credentials: I am a Chemical Engineer in a Senior Tecnical Leadership position at a refinery with over thirty years of experience. 1) API gravity is the density of the crude oil. Higher API = lower density. We use this unit of measure because it magnifies the differences in densities vs. using conventional units of measure. 2) Refiners in the US mix different crude types to maximize the objective f…

I'm glad you're here :)

This is the kind of top engineering tech info that you sometimes get on HN, but much more often in the field of software than the less-abstract types of projects being built.

I like to build laboratories that use research instruments and techniques to get engineers and traders the results they need.

I've seen a few misconceptions with more discussion of the oil crisis appearing lately and figured I would add something sooner or later myself.

Anyway I was the early adopter of digital densitometry all those decades ago, and this is one of those rare times when you see API it has nothing to do with software, it means the American Petroleum Institute :)

But turns out their gravity scale is far more abstract than most people imagine.

>We use this unit of measure because it magnifies the differences in densities vs. using conventional units of measure.

Exactly. I've had research people stumble over this.

Well for oils & fuels going in & out of the refinery, they naturally can be quite consistent but always have significant variations in density with each batch and this is normal. API gravity is an excellent measure of density for this reason above all, it depends completely on density (not viscosity at all [0]) and you want these everyday minor differences (in the same feedstock or product stream) to have their numerical density reading show more easily-noticeable meaningful variation than you get from plain kg/m3 or specific gravity numbers. Plus actually end up with two significant figures being adequate most of the time in the real world, and more memorable across a wider range compared to 3 or 4 figures using conventional units.

Now how did the API gravity number end up getting bigger when the density is less? What's up with that?

It's a physical workflow thing. Density of liquids has been measured using simple glass hydrometers since like forever. Same kind used by beermakers to estimate alcohol content based on density, using hydrometers calibrated against liquids having known specific gravity.

IOW, the lighter the density, the deeper the hydrometer sinks, then you take a reading from the unsubmerged portion of the stem. If the scale is calibrated in density or specific gravity, you read increasing numbers starting from the top of the calibrated glass stem. For oils & fuels you also need to know the temperature that the gravity reading was recorded at, so there's also a thermometer in the test sample along with the hydrometer. And people always read a thermometer from bottom-to-top as they count the little graduations in between numbered major divisions. "Everybody knows" the biggest numbers are at the top of the glassware, without any training. But as mentioned, you read a specific gravity hydrometer from top-to-bottom, where the smallest marked numbers are at the top of the glassware. Plus major divisions are fewer and further between than a thermometer. Ruh-roh. For busy people it's too easy to take both readings from bottom-to-top and get wildly or subtly incorrect results. But that's how you are supposed to read (the exact same glasssware) when calibrated using the API scale, which is mathematically inverted and expanded.

So you get °API where 10.0 is the gravity of water, and 100 is less density than you normally get without it being a pressurized product like LPG. 100 is not the limit, and negative °API is also meaningful but anything below 10 and it's usually the kind of tar or asphalt that sinks even in fresh water.

But that's not abstract enough yet. "Specific" gravity however, is basically a unitless number since it is always relative to something else, usually water. Which you are supposed to specify whether the reference material is water or not but it's so seldom documented that the only professional approach is to assume so without question. Provided that's as decent an assumption as it usually is, then for hydrocarbons the recorded specific gravity is supposed to also specify what temperatures both the test material and reference material values were obtained at. This qualification is not nearly as documented as often as it should be, then you pretty much have to assume it's 60 Fahrenheit for oils & fuels plus the reference water too. Looks like being unitless is supposed to carry a lot more metadata that it doesn't always show up with. Oh well. In petroleum it's still pretty strict about 60 F though, but the 15 C crowd has been on the rise for decades, from what I can tell it's because there is no metric integer equal to 60 F :\

The cool thing about specific gravity being unitless is that (considering temperature) you can use any accurate units of measure for weight and volume when taking raw density readings in the field. Grams, pounds, stones, liters, gallons, etc in any combination of weight per volume. Just has to be consistent between the test sample and reference material. So everything cancels and you get the same numerical rating from anywhere in the world at any time over the centuries. Once grams came along, and were standardized equal to one mL of water (under conditions!!) then it just so happens that specific gravity closely resembles the numerical density when the density is expressed in units of grams/mL. In these nearly-ideal metric units though the deceptively similar values are still significantly different from true specific gravity, and the differences often completely neglected along with the buoyancy of air. Which can have obvious significance if you're talking about a ship as big as a blimp.

So the density that the product actually behaves with in the real world, is imagined as if it were handled in a vacuum instead, while being held at some ideal well-known temperature, then converted to a unitless number, before being inverted and scaled to numerically better match the application.

Making the °API "almost like a bogus phenomenon", while still being based strictly on density, rather than °API being as much of a physical property itself.

But it works so much better than the real numbers the physical property is measured in, and the hydrometer does the same thing either way :)

Any more abstraction and the workflow could have gotten worse not better, you've got to stop as soon as you can or you could end up with no trail leading back to the underlying solution needed ;)

With digital densitometry you're not supposed to still need a plain old glass hydrometer, and naturally it's not so simple :0 Don't get me started on that ;)

[0] Although someone familiar with a particular oil field may accomplish some pretty good estimation of API gravity as a result of long term correlation between apparent visual thickness and measured density over the years.

Re: How an oil refinery works

#186

The article does a good job of showing how a typical barrel of oil is converted into a dozen or more distinct usable products. It would be helpful to also have a chart that shows how much gasoline or diesel as a percentage of each barrel is produced. It would be a bit variable, since not all crude oil is the same, but I think it would be close for most of it. Some people think when diesel and regular gas prices diver…

>how much gasoline or diesel as a percentage of each barrel is produced. It would be a bit variable, since not all crude oil is the same

It is extremely variable, crude oils are amazingly diverse.

Re: How an oil refinery works

#189

About thirty years ago, I was given a personal tour of an oil refinery in Yokohama, Japan. I was doing freelance translation then for a Japanese oil company. I mentioned to one of my contacts there that I would be interested in actually seeing the sort of equipment I was translating documents about, and they arranged a visit for me. Two things stand out in my memory: Even though the refinery was in full operation, we…

Impressive. I had to perform a site survey at a refinery for an engineering firm I worked for in the US. It was situated outside of a poor/working class, predominantly minority town. The smell hit us in the car as we got off the interstate. The windows were rolled up and the A/C was blasting (it was the middle of summer). The air was hazy miles from the plant and stank of petroleum. It looked like a dystopian video game with a sepia-toned filter over what felt like a deserted town. The noises on site went from bad to horrific (with signage indicating permanent hearing damage if you spent any time in the area for more than a minute to traverse the space while wearing earplugs and headphones). And the suddenly sweet smell of benzene from the (apparently broken for a number of undisclosed years) recovery system when the wind shifted.

Re: How an oil refinery works

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Likewise, a lot of the complaints people have about data centers are engineering choices. If companies can get away with it, they'll do it the cheap way.

What could be needed is internalization of external costs. If you release chemicals that cause problems, charge the polluter, and send the charges to those affected. On a global scale this breaks down, because governments value the lives of non-citizens orders of magnitude below the lives of their own citizens. The US will spend millions to save one expected life at home; it will avoid spending thousands to save one…

The problem with "costs" is that when companies are finally faced with steep fines or lose a lawsuit, they would often declare bankruptcy or a spin-off a division and dump all the obligations to the spun-off company which would go bankrupt. The only thing that works, I believe, is the threat of criminal penalties with actual jail time.
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