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I'm done making desktop applications (2009)

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Re: I'm done making desktop applications (2009)

#181

Post by hiAndrewQuinn »

neilv wrote: post #26

> However, the existence of pirates is a stitch in my craw, particularly when any schoolmarm typing the name of my software into Google is prompted to try stealing it instead: I wonder whether Google, in its Don't Be Evil era, ever considered what they should do about software piracy, and what they decided. I'd guess they would've decided to either discourage piracy, or at least not encourage it. In the screenshot, t…

(Disclaimer: no special knowledge of Google, all below is solely my opinion and not to be considered as factual.)

Google's revenue model is and has always been web first. The more business happening on the web, the better it is for Google writ large, especially back when competing with Microsoft was a larger priority in that space.

It's much harder to pirate a web app, for obvious reasons, than a desktop app. Desktop apps being easy to pirate shifts professional software developers on the margin towards more web apps, which means more commercial activity centered on the web, which is is good for Google. So one could imagine pretty good business reasons to be at least blasé on the topic.

Re: I'm done making desktop applications (2009)

#182

Post by d3Xt3r »

jasomill wrote: post #165
d3Xt3r wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For something like Audacity (the audio program), how the heck does it make sense to put that on a website (I'm just giving a random example, I don't think they've actually done this), where you first have to upload your source file (privacy issues), manipulate it in a graphically/widget-limited browser I understand it was just an example, but you'd be surprised how far browsers have come along with technologies lik…

Sure, but taking your video editor example, what advantages does an in-browser app provide over a native application like DaVinci Resolve, other than portability and not needing to install the application, in exchange for reduced performance, a clunkier interface, and reduced integration with the rest of the desktop platform? And if this is such a compelling value proposition for full-featured desktop productivity ap…

Portability and not having to install the app is a huge advantage. Especially on operating systems where there aren't any decent choices. Take Android for example, the Play Store is full of rubbish and adware-riddled apps, finding a decent app in there is like looking for a needle in a haystack. And whilst FDroid exists, most of the apps there are pretty basic in general, especially wrt this example (video editing).

Putting aside the video editing example for a bit, consider the photo editing web app Photopea, which is an excellent alternative to Adobe Photoshop. Linux is in urgent need of a Photoshop-like editor (and no, GIMP doesn't cut it), but Photopea does a decent enough job for many amateurs and even some pros. For a lot of these folks, Photoshop is one of the last things stopping them from switching to Linux, so apps like Photopea fill that gap. And guess what, Photopea works great on Android too.

Another use case is restricted environments where you can't easily find and install apps, eg immutable distros, or work computers. I use Photopea on my work PC quite regularly for light editing, because MS Paint sucks, and my role doesn't really justify going thru the hassle of getting the approvals to get an editor installed. So like it or not, web apps have their place.

Re: I'm done making desktop applications (2009)

#183

Post by emodendroket »

hn_acc1 wrote: post #129
ryandrake wrote: post #17

Almost all of Patrick's points are great if your software development goal is to make a buck . They don't seem to matter if you're writing open source, and I'd argue that desktop apps are still relevant and wonderful in the open source world. I just started a new hobby project, and am doing it as a cross-platform, non-Electron, desktop app because that's what I like to develop. The onboarding funnel: Only a concern i…

To me, I prefer desktop apps because I KNOW when I've upgraded - it either said "upgrade now?" and did it, or, in the olden days, I had to track it down, or I installed an updated version of a distro, which included updated apps, so I expected some updates. There are some things that NATURALLY lend themselves to a website - like doctor's appointments, bank balance, etc - but it's still a pain when, on logging in to "…

> To me, I prefer desktop apps because I KNOW when I've upgraded - it either said "upgrade now?" and did it, or, in the olden days, I had to track it down, or I installed an updated version of a distro, which included updated apps, so I expected some updates.

Yeah, but as a maintainer it's the opposite, isn't it? I don't have to worry about supporting version current - 3 in the Polish version of Windows because you're always running the version I've deployed in the environment I've deployed it in (I mean, yes, I'm oversimplifying given the frontend component, but that's still a much smaller surface).

Re: I'm done making desktop applications (2009)

#184

Post by hiAndrewQuinn »

Aurornis wrote: post #76

The author (who is a frequent commenter here) started a company called Appointment Reminder after writing this, which for years was my favorite example of an independent small company that identified a niche, served it well, and then went on to be acquired. There's an interview with him on the subject that is sadly behind a paywall now: https://www.indiehackers.com/post/how-i-grew-my-appointment-... The world has cha…

I think you'd appreciate some of the more philosophical thoughts behind folks like Robin Hanson or gwern, then. Or even father down that road, books like The Enigma of Reason.

The idea that previous business success only weakly predicts future business success, and that that correlation probably becomes even weaker as one tries things increasingly far from the perimeter, is one I believe in but can't really trace back to any concrete source, which suggests my worldview just dynamically generates it off the dome in response to this story. I probably have imbibing their arguments over a decade plus to thank for that.

I'm still a big fan of patio11 though. Starfighter is maybe best seen these days as watching a man be professionally slightly embarrassed, then dusting himself off and going on to do a bunch of cool stuff afterwards anyway, weak correlations be damned.

Re: I'm done making desktop applications (2009)

#185

Post by cyberax »

kalleboo wrote: post #179
cyberax wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sure, but taking your video editor example, what advantages does an in-browser app provide over a native application like DaVinci Resolve It's the issue of friction. Also, good webapps are often _better_ than native apps, as they can support tabs. > And if this is such a compelling value proposition for full-featured desktop productivity applications, why didn't Java Web Start set the world on fire? Because it reli…

> Also, good webapps are often _better_ than native apps, as they can support tabs All the native apps I use support tabs, its a basic feature of the macOS windowing APIs https://developer.apple.com/documentation/appkit/nswindowtab...

This is a relatively new API, and the native apps that I use still don't support it properly. There are also things like middle-clicking to open things in new tabs, and being able to bookmark locations.

Re: I'm done making desktop applications (2009)

#186

Post by mmarian »

drBonkers wrote: post #73
xp84 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Metrics” This reminds me of a past job working for an e-commerce company. This wasn’t a store like Amazon that “everyone” uses weekly, it was a specific pricey fashion brand. They had put out a shitty iOS app, which was just a very bare-bones wrapper around the website. But they raved about how much better the conversion rate rates were there. Nobody would listen to me about how the customers that bother downloading…

Hey, I notice this kind of thing all the time. People use "data" to tell the story they want to -- similar to how it seems humans make a decision subconsciously then weave a rational decision to back it up afterwards. Do you have principles on how to tackle this? I feel stuck between the irrationality of anecdata and the irrationality of lying with numbers. As if the only useful statistic is one I collect and calcula…

Review the methodology, if you can, and form your own conclusions. Don't bother trying to change people's minds. It rarely works, and often causes conflict, even in the case of people who say they're data-driven.

Re: I'm done making desktop applications (2009)

#188

Post by solatic »

ryandrake wrote: post #17

Almost all of Patrick's points are great if your software development goal is to make a buck . They don't seem to matter if you're writing open source, and I'd argue that desktop apps are still relevant and wonderful in the open source world. I just started a new hobby project, and am doing it as a cross-platform, non-Electron, desktop app because that's what I like to develop. The onboarding funnel: Only a concern i…

> only a concern if you're charging money

No, it's a concern if you care about impact. Improving commercial profits is one kind of impact that is relevant to for-profit corporations, but there is also impact like "improving user privacy" or "helping lower-income people manage their finances with a free-as-in-beer product". This impact can be measured and the feedback can be used to improve the product according to non-profit, non-commercial goals.

There are also people who build open-source software as a hobby and couldn't give two shits whether other people use it or not. More power to them. For those people, you are correct. https://book.iced.rs/philosophy.html comes to mind.

Then there are projects like Streisand (maybe a bad example, I see it has since been archived, but it came to mind) that want to change the world in some way. Those projects very much do need to care about metrics like, how many people are downloading the software, are people opening GitHub issues, are we obscure or is our target audience talking about us, hopefully positively but if not, how can we improve that? Value must always be worth the cost (even when the code is free, it must be worth the time to download, give it a try, give it CPU/RAM, maintain/upgrade the installation) - are we giving users value or are they churning?

It might blow your mind but even non-profits hire people with MBAs (and universities offer programs for MBAs that focus on non-profit management), precisely because some organizations focus on non-financial impact.

Re: I'm done making desktop applications (2009)

#189

Post by ThunderSizzle »

gblargg wrote: post #180
SoftTalker wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You touched on the one thing I hate most about infrequently used websites. The inevitable popup to "explore our new features." Hell no, I don't want to do that. I haven't logged on in six months, so I'm obviously here now with a purpose in mind and I want to do that as quickly as possible and then close the tab.

Might as well use another site if it's going to be all different since the last time. That's a big reason I use local apps, because I control when (and if) they get "upgraded" (and can roll back if I don't like them).

Most apps that wrap websites like that will force me to update to be able to continue using it

Re: I'm done making desktop applications (2009)

#190

Post by lgcas »

d3Xt3r wrote: post #153
hn_acc1 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me, I prefer desktop apps because I KNOW when I've upgraded - it either said "upgrade now?" and did it, or, in the olden days, I had to track it down, or I installed an updated version of a distro, which included updated apps, so I expected some updates. There are some things that NATURALLY lend themselves to a website - like doctor's appointments, bank balance, etc - but it's still a pain when, on logging in to "…

> For something like Audacity (the audio program), how the heck does it make sense to put that on a website (I'm just giving a random example, I don't think they've actually done this), where you first have to upload your source file (privacy issues), manipulate it in a graphically/widget-limited browser I understand it was just an example, but you'd be surprised how far browsers have come along with technologies lik…

Haven't used VidStudio but Pikimov is definitely worth a mention too:

https://pikimov.com/

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