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The abandoned war: Why no one is stopping the genocide in Sudan

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Re: The abandoned war: Why no one is stopping the genocide in Sudan

#181

Post by GJim »

raxxorraxor wrote: post #180
newspaper1 wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“The world” is very complicit in supporting Israel’s genocide. It also has effects like stripping the rights of citizens in countries whose governments support Israel. That’s why people care.

It isn't a genocide for that matter. I always was projection by their detractors and it is getting old really. We have attacks on synagogues all over the world and we had protests on the day after Israel got attacked. I don't like the government of Israel either, but I think the loudest critics are simply poor morons and uneducated fools at this point. Worse enough that some leaders of certain countries give into thi…

> It isn't a genocide for that matter.

If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck......

Re: The abandoned war: Why no one is stopping the genocide in Sudan

#182

Post by raxxorraxor »

GJim wrote: post #181
raxxorraxor wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't a genocide for that matter. I always was projection by their detractors and it is getting old really. We have attacks on synagogues all over the world and we had protests on the day after Israel got attacked. I don't like the government of Israel either, but I think the loudest critics are simply poor morons and uneducated fools at this point. Worse enough that some leaders of certain countries give into thi…

> It isn't a genocide for that matter. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck......

Yes, it doesn't really quack at all and you cannot explain these points away. There would be peace in Gaza today if it didn't invade Israel to slaughter civilians.

Re: The abandoned war: Why no one is stopping the genocide in Sudan

#183

Post by tovej »

jimberlage wrote: post #75
tovej wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you under the impression that Sudan was not under British colonial rule for ~50-60 years? This completely wrecked their economy and political structures, with the British intentionally causing divides between ethnic groups in Sudan and Egypt. And are you seriously claiming that this was a good thing? Is this some crazy new neo-conservative take about the West being the only block that can be "civilized"?

I don't think this was the British. (Not to apologize for them - they certainly made things worse, not better.) Sudan sits on a historical chattel slavery route that stretches back to Roman times. It's hallmarked by the Northern population raiding the south, along racial lines. Scholarly article for reference if you want to learn more: https://www.jstor.org/stable/827888

I'm not arguing saying the British are solely responsible (I'm not sure who is most responsible). But the point is that the parent's claim that colonization would solve political issues in Sudan is ridiculous.

Re: The abandoned war: Why no one is stopping the genocide in Sudan

#184

Post by tovej »

anovikov wrote: post #173
tovej wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cyprus is an island. That changes a lot of the dynamics. Also Cyprus has the support of its big brother Greece, which the Greek majority Cypriots wanted to unite with. Sudan had no such partner, because the Egyptian rulers aligned themselves with the British. I hope you can see that Greece is the key differentiating factor here. Any other argument is disingenuous. Not to mention the racist attitudes of the British em…

"Support" of Greece - that was withdrawn when it was critically needed - resulted in the biggest disaster of our history, 1974 invasion. Greece only brought instability here and it was a much poorer and much more chaotic place to begin with, it couldn't do better even if it wished.

I'm not saying the Greece-Cyprus relationship is totally good in every way, but compare it to Egypt-Sudan. I hope you can see how the differences in geopolitics advantage Cyprus when compared to Sudan.

Re: The abandoned war: Why no one is stopping the genocide in Sudan

#185

Post by actionfromafar »

renewiltord wrote: post #165
actionfromafar wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US is too large to pretend it can be isolationist.

The Europeans want us out of Europe. So maybe we should go. I think that seems mutually agreeable. Let them slaughter each other again and we can come stop it and pick up the pieces. Again. Always have to be the adult in the room.

Yeah, the kiss and tell (to Putin) kind of adult.

Re: The abandoned war: Why no one is stopping the genocide in Sudan

#187

Post by ahhhhnoooo »

boxed wrote: post #177
ahhhhnoooo wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can tell you are unable to approach this topic rationally. No one made the claim this is the worse genocide ever. It does not need to rise to that bar to be a genocide. Your hyperbole is not a good faith effort to discuss the topic. And the whataboutism is a deflection. Genocide is bad everywhere it's occurring. Right now it's occurring in many places, one of which is within Israel/Palestine. If you believe it's al…

> Your hyperbole is not a good faith effort to discuss the topic I mean.. I think the same about your continued use of the word "genocide" in this war. Israel is fighting a war with human shields being explicitly used basically 100% of the time. Hamas fires missiles from inside refugee camps, and shooting AKs from behind children. Hamas is committing a war crime almost every time they attack at all. They built a tunn…

Israel has deployed more explosive munitions by tonnage on the Gaza Strip than were deployed in the entirety of world war 2. In an area smaller than Seattle, with four times the density of civilians and a huge proportion of children.

They've deployed white phosphorous. There are IDF soldiers on record saying they've shot children waiting in line for aid, because they drifted inches over the "do not step past this line" mark. Sde Teiman is a torture camp.

Hamas is evil, but you can fight evil without those things. I condemn Hamas, but "they did a war crime" is not a justification for total violence of any type as retribution.

And what about tolerance of settlers in the West Bank? The removal of journalists? The killing of aid workers? It's not just the Gaza Strip (though what's there is truly beyond the pale.)

Re: The abandoned war: Why no one is stopping the genocide in Sudan

#188

Post by jvanderbot »

Paradigm2020 wrote: post #168
jvanderbot wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many. But it's reductive to the extreme to 1) group charities as "charities" when large "nonprofit / ngo" term is more suitable. 2) assume that wasteful _free_ money to a charity makes the charity less good. If a third party takes 90% of the money they raise and gives 10% to the charity, then that's free money for the charity. It's deceptive, and they are cutting a huge profit on the back of the good work t…

The charities sign a contract with the third parties unfortunately - eg they have permission from the charity. Here in Europe oxfam for example uses some of these private companies and they get the first year of donations and from the 2nd year it goes to oxfam itself. Apparently the average person cancels donations after 2,5 years so for a zero marketing budget (for oxfam) they make 1.5 year x your donation. When I f…

The world is an awful place, but just think of all the paid advertising companies that are _not_ making donations to charities of any kind.

Re: The abandoned war: Why no one is stopping the genocide in Sudan

#189

Post by WarmWash »

ahhhhnoooo wrote: post #167
WarmWash wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, that's great and respectable. But you don't address the core problem which is "How do you handle the people faking (often even faking out themselves!) the need for selfish gain?" and "How do you handle the people who see others lying for gain, and they themselves convert from the helpers to the helped"? Most people just sweep this under the rug, because it is an obvious and fatal flaw in the system. It's also ide…

It's really important to differentiate mutual aid from charity. They are very different. Mutual aid is about building community and then sharing your excess with that community. My extra food is not going to random humans, but rather to people I know. Maybe not well, but we know each other. Charity goes out to strangers. You are giving something away, but not building community. Charity doesn't build resiliency, imo,…

The problem is that communities are grossly inefficient.

Look at what happened when big box stores came to local communities. "We are a community" goes out the window when walmart milk is 30% cheaper than Mom and Pop milk. Why? Because massive centralized operations are inherently more efficient, and they can leverage that efficiency to offer the lowest prices. And people on the whole will always, always, always, shop for the best deal.

Look, I'm someone who spends weeks every year in Vermont, which is the last place in the US that still has "community" focused living (if you have never been, it would be magical for you). No big box stores, no strip malls, no franchise chains, all local farms, local businesses.

But you know what the truth is? They are all dead broke with stagnant industry and a total dependence on outsiders bringing in money to keep their "community living" theme park alive.

Re: The abandoned war: Why no one is stopping the genocide in Sudan

#190

Post by ahhhhnoooo »

WarmWash wrote: post #189
ahhhhnoooo wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really important to differentiate mutual aid from charity. They are very different. Mutual aid is about building community and then sharing your excess with that community. My extra food is not going to random humans, but rather to people I know. Maybe not well, but we know each other. Charity goes out to strangers. You are giving something away, but not building community. Charity doesn't build resiliency, imo,…

The problem is that communities are grossly inefficient. Look at what happened when big box stores came to local communities. "We are a community" goes out the window when walmart milk is 30% cheaper than Mom and Pop milk. Why? Because massive centralized operations are inherently more efficient, and they can leverage that efficiency to offer the lowest prices. And people on the whole will always, always, always, sho…

Inefficient, probably, but remember that you are operating within a system where people need to shop for a deal. There are other systems one can consider. And don't think of community as a single local place, but rather multiple interlocking sets of people. I'll give an example.

One of my communities is farmers. Farmers get paid ~$7 for a bushel of grain (~50lbs). Those same grains can cost $5/lb at the grocery store. When I buy from the farmer, we've settled on a rate of $18/bushel, or So, now two communities that I'm a part of benefit - the farmers earn more for their product, the hungry eat for free. The farmer community doesn't have to know the hungry community. And the only financial input is purchasing the grain for FAR less than retail, and without every middleman taking a cut.

Kropotkin's Conquest of Bread hypothesizes that if we gave the farmer everything they needed to farm and live comfortably, the farmer would give away the grain. If the grain was free, we'd have people make bread and feed others for free. (This part is at least partially true, because I know I do it, and I'm not the only one who does.)

People like making stuff. People like sharing.

I'm trying to find an in to a biodiesel community, to see if I cannot connect them as well, benefiting the farmer community and giving food and material to the biodiesel community. Haven't connected there yet.

Don't think of this as small town isolationism, but rather a distributed system of syndicates producing and sharing their excess with others who have a use for the excess. Makerspaces on a grand scale, with the resources of many, many people.

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