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NYC to open municipal grocery store in 2027

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Re: NYC to open municipal grocery store in 2027

#181

Post by wahnfrieden »

rsynnott wrote: post #172
halflife wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s about supply and demand. Luxury grocers provide a shopping “experience”, where low cost grocers do not. In a luxury neighborhood it would make sense the shoppers are looking for experience more so than low cost.

What’s a ‘luxury neighborhood’? In any large city, most central areas are generally a bit of a mix; “this is only for rich/poor people” is more of a suburban phenomenon. If the shops are only catering to the high end, a problem can develop. (I am less sure why this happens to such a great extent in large US cities vs elsewhere, vs more of a balance of shops, but it does seem to.)

The poster appears to be Israeli. I’m not an expert and have never been but I understand spatial wealth segregation is quite extreme there and may explain their take. Here’s one study: https://www.ref-inst.org/en/articles-and-studies/spatial-ine...

So it may just be that where they are from, the concept of “luxury neighborhoods” which do not need to cater to the poor and disadvantaged populations does indeed exist, due to segregation factors

Re: NYC to open municipal grocery store in 2027

#182

Post by nickpp »

ModernMech wrote: post #174
WalterBright wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Two-thirds of that has gone to the richest 1% of the world’s people Their wealth was not transferred to them, they created the wealth. > billionaires are a third richer now than they were before the pandemic That gives zero information about the non-billionaires. 66% of the federal budget goes to entitlements (welfare, medicare, social security, etc.). Not to rich people. > Sure. Inflation doesn't exist. Isn't that…

What exactly did the 1% do to "create the wealth"?

I know a few categories falling under this "richest 1% of the world’s people": entrepreneurs, highly paid professionals and politicians.

The entrepreneurs invested in or built from scratch organizations able to deliver an incredible amount of value to our society in the form of products, services and jobs. These organizations, called businesses, are the unsung heroes that differentiate our lands of plenty from the hunger and cold of countries suffering under communism.

The professionals (doctors, lawyers, programmers) worked in such organizations and added significant value ensuring their success in the market place.

Finally, politicians managed to convince a sufficient number people that only they can solve their problems and thus got themselves elected into positions where they control significant flows of money and/or influence.

Re: NYC to open municipal grocery store in 2027

#183

Post by WalterBright »

ModernMech wrote: post #174
WalterBright wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Two-thirds of that has gone to the richest 1% of the world’s people Their wealth was not transferred to them, they created the wealth. > billionaires are a third richer now than they were before the pandemic That gives zero information about the non-billionaires. 66% of the federal budget goes to entitlements (welfare, medicare, social security, etc.). Not to rich people. > Sure. Inflation doesn't exist. Isn't that…

What exactly did the 1% do to "create the wealth"?

1. start a business

2. invest in an existing business

May I recommend reading biographies of Gates, Jobs, Bezos, Musk, Buffet, etc.

Re: NYC to open municipal grocery store in 2027

#184

Post by ModernMech »

WalterBright wrote: post #183
ModernMech wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly did the 1% do to "create the wealth"?

1. start a business 2. invest in an existing business May I recommend reading biographies of Gates, Jobs, Bezos, Musk, Buffet, etc.

Starting and and investing in businesses are matters of filing paperwork. The mere act is worth nothing but the investment and paper it's written on.

So the question still remains, what did they create to make them worth the money they have? Because it seems to me the only thing that correlates to their wealth isn't what they created but the contracts they've signed. Which is fine but your contention was they as individuals created something to make them worth that much, and I'm wondering what that is.

Re: NYC to open municipal grocery store in 2027

#185

Post by WalterBright »

ModernMech wrote: post #184
WalterBright wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. start a business 2. invest in an existing business May I recommend reading biographies of Gates, Jobs, Bezos, Musk, Buffet, etc.

Starting and and investing in businesses are matters of filing paperwork. The mere act is worth nothing but the investment and paper it's written on. So the question still remains, what did they create to make them worth the money they have? Because it seems to me the only thing that correlates to their wealth isn't what they created but the contracts they've signed. Which is fine but your contention was they as indi…

Selling a product or service for more than it costs you is creating value. That's what a business is.

I again suggest picking up and reading one of those biographies.

Re: NYC to open municipal grocery store in 2027

#186

Post by oa335 »

ModernMech wrote: post #179
oa335 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The underlying theory is to put these stores in areas that otherwise lack grocery store access, I’m generally partial to that motivation - however doesn’t seem to be happening here. This location (La Marqueta) is within a couple hundred feet of a "City Fresh Market" grocery store and ~1500 from several other grocery stores https://www.google.com/maps/search/grocery+store/@40.7983886...

But if you're running a pilot, wouldn't you want it near some other store to see what the impact on their business actually is? Running a pilot in the middle of nowhere would say nothing about how it impacts other local stores. You'd end up having to run another pilot to answer that question.

> Running a pilot in the middle of nowhere would say nothing about how it impacts other local stores.

I disagree. They could still run the pilot "in the middle of nowhere" or in a food desert and still measure the impact on the nearest grocery stores. Given that's what they want to do long-term, I think that's the configuration they should be studying.

Re: NYC to open municipal grocery store in 2027

#187

Post by asdff »

KK7NIL wrote: post #154
asdff wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't see how the government driving out competition by running its own grocery stores, presumably at a loss, is "facilitating conditions for commerce". If someone is stealing your only $20 out of your pocket and I stop them and you now have $20 in your pocket, I've just created conditions for commerce on the part of you taking that $20 and spending it someplace else in the market than on the thief. When you give…

> If someone is stealing your only $20 out of your pocket and I stop them and you now have $20 in your pocket, I've just created conditions for commerce on the part of you taking that $20 and spending it someplace else in the market than on the thief. Grocery stores aren't thieves, they're largely pretty terrible businesses with extremely thin margins. But, to engage with your ridiculous bait and switch: whether I or…

>But, to engage with your ridiculous bait and switch: whether I or the thief have $20 is irrelevant to the commerce as he'll presumably spend it at the market too, so even this ridiculously contrived example falls flat on its face.

Nope, poor person spends far greater share of their wealth on real items.

>Here you go again with some ridiculously biased example, but I'll engage with it for your own sake: money that's invested doesn't just disappear, it goes into the pockets of employees and suppliers or gets reinvested in some other way, continuing the cycle.

Ahh yes, it all trickles down. That is why wages have kept pace with inflation and why inequality has remained the same over the decades! No hoarding going on! It was right in my back pocket the whole time!

Please formally define what you believe the role of government is. I am genuinely curious on what these anarcholibertarians such as yourself actually believe in.

Re: NYC to open municipal grocery store in 2027

#188

Post by ModernMech »

oa335 wrote: post #186
ModernMech wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if you're running a pilot, wouldn't you want it near some other store to see what the impact on their business actually is? Running a pilot in the middle of nowhere would say nothing about how it impacts other local stores. You'd end up having to run another pilot to answer that question.

> Running a pilot in the middle of nowhere would say nothing about how it impacts other local stores. I disagree. They could still run the pilot "in the middle of nowhere" or in a food desert and still measure the impact on the nearest grocery stores. Given that's what they want to do long-term, I think that's the configuration they should be studying.

Ultimately they want to put the stores where hungry people need food and cannot afford to eat. Food deserts are not defined as a lack of all food sources, but a lack of affordable, accessible food sources. Therefore it's still important to assess the impact of placing it nearby other existing food sources.

Why wouldn't you want to discover whether and to what degree that actually negatively impacts the existing store?

Re: NYC to open municipal grocery store in 2027

#189

Post by ModernMech »

WalterBright wrote: post #185
ModernMech wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Starting and and investing in businesses are matters of filing paperwork. The mere act is worth nothing but the investment and paper it's written on. So the question still remains, what did they create to make them worth the money they have? Because it seems to me the only thing that correlates to their wealth isn't what they created but the contracts they've signed. Which is fine but your contention was they as indi…

Selling a product or service for more than it costs you is creating value. That's what a business is. I again suggest picking up and reading one of those biographies.

I've read biographies on Gates and Jobs, also Satya Nadella. I sidestepped that comment because it seemed snide to me. I know who these people are and what they did with their lives, and how they made their money. Maybe you might re-read their biographies and note how their successes were a combination of skill, luck, connections, circumstance, and survivorship bias, and how each one was backed by an army of workers.

> selling a product or service for more than it costs you is creating value.

Okay but other people are building and selling the service, not the 1%. I agree that's what business is, and they create value, but the 1% is not "the business".

So again I'm left wondering what the 1% actually created themselves such that wealth was not transferred. Because if the value is in selling the product or service, then it would seem to me the people who deserve the benefit are the sales/engineering/manufacturing/service people. But you said it's not a transfer of wealth, it's the actual 1% who created the value. You still haven't said what they create and why that means they deserve to own and control all that wealth.

Re: NYC to open municipal grocery store in 2027

#190

Post by WalterBright »

ModernMech wrote: post #189
WalterBright wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Selling a product or service for more than it costs you is creating value. That's what a business is. I again suggest picking up and reading one of those biographies.

I've read biographies on Gates and Jobs, also Satya Nadella. I sidestepped that comment because it seemed snide to me. I know who these people are and what they did with their lives, and how they made their money. Maybe you might re-read their biographies and note how their successes were a combination of skill, luck, connections, circumstance, and survivorship bias, and how each one was backed by an army of workers.…

If you read a biography of Jobs, you'd know that Apple was 90 days from bankruptcy when they invited Jobs to take the helm. This was after a series of CEOs, each one more clueless than the previous at how to run the company. With the same company, the same workers, the same everything, Jobs reorganized and reshaped it and thereby took it to a trillion dollar valuation.

That's creating wealth.

Jobs also did something similar with Pixar. Maybe reread what he did at Pixar? It was Jobs that made the difference and created the wealth.

Do you really think that you (or I) could have replaced Jobs and created the same amount of wealth that you attribute to everything but what Jobs actually did?

Not a chance.

BTW, look at the history of the United States. If you believe wealth is transferred, not created, where in heck was the wealth today back in 1776? Who the heck was it transferred from? Did it randomly somehow fall out of the sky?

If you still cannot see this, start your own business. It will soon be very apparent how wealth is created.

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