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The truth that haunts the Ramones: 'They sold more T-shirts than records'

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Re: The truth that haunts the Ramones: 'They sold more T-shirts than records'

#181

Post by lokar »

btilly wrote: post #176
matthewkayin wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if the Starbucks example is quite the same as the band example. If anything, their focus on iced desserts shows that they know exactly what their audience wants and is paying for. When I think about the band shirts, I think about this time an indie game dev youtuber did a full breakdown of their different revenue streams. They were a "full time indie gamedev", but the overwhelming majority of their incom…

The reality is that Starbucks is the world's biggest unregulated bank, with their claws in the real estate industry. Who got that way by selling the experience of hanging out in a convenient coffee shop. Their business has run into trouble a couple of times because MBA types in the company lost sight of this, then focused on trying to sell drinks efficiently. Thereby diluting the brand and business. If you've got 22…

IMO, they, like many other companies, were doomed by the constant chase for growth. Once they had a large share of "have a milk-coffee drink in a nice lounge" market, growth slowed. But having a large market share, good margins and growth that is the same as population/gdp (+/-) is just not acceptable.

So they try to find a way to get more growth, even if it changes and perhaps kills what the business was.

Re: The truth that haunts the Ramones: 'They sold more T-shirts than records'

#182

Post by deeg »

belZaah wrote: post #10
deeg wrote: post #7

If the Ramones put their name on all sorts of merchandise does that make them sellouts? I joke, of course, and I'm a big Ramones fan. I've had numerous iterations of that shirt over the years. I often use them as an example when discussing "what is good art?" They are one of the most influential bands of all time and yet they were terrible musicians.

Terrible in which way? Did not use counterpoint sufficiently elegantly? It’s punk, mate. Try to do a set downpicking like Johnny.

There was an interview with Joey (maybe in the greatest hits liner notes?) where he said at the beginning they were trying to cover their favorite songs from the 50s and 60s but they couldn't figure them out. So they wrote their own that were easy (my word) enough to play.

Imo they were terrible musicians but a world class band.

Re: The truth that haunts the Ramones: 'They sold more T-shirts than records'

#183

Post by lokar »

Forgeties79 wrote: post #149
matthewkayin wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if the Starbucks example is quite the same as the band example. If anything, their focus on iced desserts shows that they know exactly what their audience wants and is paying for. When I think about the band shirts, I think about this time an indie game dev youtuber did a full breakdown of their different revenue streams. They were a "full time indie gamedev", but the overwhelming majority of their incom…

to add to this, the iced dessert drinks are still caffeinated, so they still fill the purported role of a Starbucks.

Well, not the original role. That was to bring some americanized version of European/Italian coffee culture to the US. Serving espresso based drinks in a comfortable public cafe style setting. It was very popular for a long time. Busy cafes full of people, selling lots of drinks, opening new shops, etc.

Re: The truth that haunts the Ramones: 'They sold more T-shirts than records'

#184

Post by [deleted] »

foobar_______ wrote: post #166
Insanity wrote: post #108

I’m a big fan of rock and metal music and often go to concerts. I’ll always buy a t-shirt of the main band I go to see, even if I don’t particularly vibe with the design, because I know it’s an additional way to support a band I like. In my opinion that alone is worth it, but it is a fun piece of memorabilia. Although I don’t wear most of them in my day to day, especially the older ones. I’ve got shirts from about 20…

why don't they have donate pages or venmo QR codes at the concert? I am serious. I don't want more stuff. I don't need tshirts. I don't need trinkets. I legitimately love music and want to support, but it is so difficult. Best I can find is digital sales of an album that doesn't cost them any manufacturing/shipping costs.

[deleted]

Re: The truth that haunts the Ramones: 'They sold more T-shirts than records'

#185

Post by gamerdonkey »

abap_rocky wrote: post #87

I was reading an interview with the band "Agriculture" recently and they had a really interesting take on this. From this interview https://www.treblezine.com/agriculture-interview-quiet-viole... : "DM: We exist as a band because we sell t-shirts. Our job is that we sell t-shirts and the way we promote those t-shirts is by playing music. If we were talking strictly economically, that’s just a fact. LL: Weirdly, it’s…

MC Frontalot and MC Lars had a fun take on this same concept in "Captains of Industry", which you may enjoy, depending on your feelings on old nerdcore hip-hop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTrKmP7oU9U

It's pretty funny, and includes Fronalot's characteristic wordplay with lyrics like:

> Captains are we. Of what? Industry.

Which could also be taken as:

> Captains are we, of what industry?

Re: The truth that haunts the Ramones: 'They sold more T-shirts than records'

#186

Post by pstuart »

guyzero wrote: post #177
bobro wrote: post #164

My favorite example of this is Joy Division. They’re the band with that cool white-on-black ridge line plot shirt. If you haven’t listened to their music before, go check it out. You probably won’t like it very much. I don’t know how many records or shirts they sold, but their ratio of shirts sold to records sold has to be one of the wildest.

The bulk of those shirts have got to be pirated, but for a while they were selling them at Bandy Melville, a clothing store whose target demographic has seemingly very little overlap with fans of Joy Division. The ultimate triumph of the signifier over the signified.

Well, it was a public domain picture of pulsar, and I remember seeing it in Scientific American before the band used it. I had the shirt, loved it. Had tix to see them on their first tour of the states and then Ian had to go and off himself.

Re: The truth that haunts the Ramones: 'They sold more T-shirts than records'

#187

Post by pstuart »

cycomanic wrote: post #92
DeathArrow wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I joke, of course, and I'm a big Ramones fan. I've had numerous iterations of that shirt over the years. I often use them as an example when discussing "what is good art?" They are one of the most influential bands of all time and yet they were terrible musicians. This makes me to wonder why do you and other people like them and why were them influential? Isn't a band's purpose to produce good music and aren't peopl…

What is good music though? I think the OP meant that the Ramones were terrible musicians in the sense that they were technically "good", i.e. most jazz musicians are much better technically. But that's the whole point the OP is making, to make good music you don't need to be technically good, i.e. to play the most complex guitar solos or be extremely accurate in your timing on the drums.

"One chord is fine. Two chords are pushing it. Three chords and you're into jazz" -- Lou Reed.

I remember there was a whole debate about Lou being a sellout for appearing in an ad for a Honda Scooter. Such innocent days...

Re: The truth that haunts the Ramones: 'They sold more T-shirts than records'

#188

Post by wongarsu »

dylan604 wrote: post #155
NikolaNovak wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. I understand the truth of it 2. The inefficiency bugs me I.e. I want to support the band, but feel like only a fraction of the money spent on merch goes to the target. Same with websites that have mugs and such. I don't want another mug, I don't want to pay 5.99 for shipping, I don't need to support the white box oem mug manufacturer. But I guess in the real pragmatical world, that's the support mechanism that act…

> I want to support the band, but feel like only a fraction of the money spent on merch goes to the target. Maybe you don't have any friends that are in a band, but if it's the band members or friends of the band selling the merch, they are getting 100% of the profit. They design the shirts, they pay for the printing of the shirts, they then sell the shirts directly with their own hands. There's no middleman taking c…

I guess they are technically not middle men because they sit one the start of the value chain, but the company making the t-shirts, the one selling it and the one printing on it are still making good profits. On top of the actual costs of making those printed t-shirts.

I imagine it's not hugely expensive at the volumes bands need, somewhere from $3-10 per t-shirt depending on quality, and maybe double that for hoodies? And if you are buying online shipping and handling, which is another $5-10 that I'm paying and isn't going to the artist. Not a huge deal. But if you don't care about the physical product and just want the band to have some money that's still a good bit of inefficiency

Re: The truth that haunts the Ramones: 'They sold more T-shirts than records'

#189

Post by ljm »

VBprogrammer wrote: post #101
ageitgey wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very smart of them to recognize that. The world is full of these weird business cases where people aren't aware of the actual product, like how Starbucks US morphed from a coffee shop into an iced dessert drinks company that also incidentally sells hot coffee. Edit: Other fun examples - In the mid-2000s, Porsche was an incredibly successful hedge fund that also sold cars who tried to acquire VW using a short squ…

Or Blockbuster being a massive real-estate company. Or McDonald's for that matter.

Similarly Wether spoons, the chain of pubs in the UK.

More interestingly, they tend to set up in historically significant or listed buildings and as a result, preserve them. Not unusual to find a Spoons set up in an old 19th century bank or something.

Re: The truth that haunts the Ramones: 'They sold more T-shirts than records'

#190

Post by btilly »

lokar wrote: post #181
btilly wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reality is that Starbucks is the world's biggest unregulated bank, with their claws in the real estate industry. Who got that way by selling the experience of hanging out in a convenient coffee shop. Their business has run into trouble a couple of times because MBA types in the company lost sight of this, then focused on trying to sell drinks efficiently. Thereby diluting the brand and business. If you've got 22…

IMO, they, like many other companies, were doomed by the constant chase for growth. Once they had a large share of "have a milk-coffee drink in a nice lounge" market, growth slowed. But having a large market share, good margins and growth that is the same as population/gdp (+/-) is just not acceptable. So they try to find a way to get more growth, even if it changes and perhaps kills what the business was.

There's more to the story than that.

Around 2000 the founder stepped away, and MBAs brought in automated machines. They were more efficient and consistent at making the drinks than the baristas, and business tanked. The founder came back in 2008, got rid of the machines, and brought the baristas back. Business took off again.

It really is the experience that is being sold.

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