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Good software knows when to stop

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Re: Good software knows when to stop

#181

Post by 4k0hz »

socalgal2 wrote: post #138
thewebguyd wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And people liked that model, see the huge backlash when Adobe went subscription for creative suite. I do wedding photography as a side hustle, I upgrade my camera maybe once every ~7 years. Cameras have largely been good enough since 2016 and the 5D Mark IV. I have a pair of R6 mk II that I'll probably hold onto for the next 10 years. Point being, Lightroom has more or less been feature complete for me for a very, ve…

> And people liked that model, see the huge backlash when Adobe went subscription for creative suite. That backlash was short lived. Adobe went from $4.4 billion in revenue in 2021 to $23.7 billion. It used to cost $2500 for the "master collection". Now it's $50 a month. I was one of those people that disliked switching to subscription. I stayed on CS6 for years. I'm also only a relatively casual user though. I once…

> That backlash was short lived. Adobe went from $4.4 billion in revenue in 2021 to $23.7 billion

So? Anecdotally, the vast majority of Adobe product users are still upset about the subscription model (but not upset enough to switch to worse software)

> It used to cost $2500 for the "master collection". Now it's $50 a month.

Illustrator-filmmaker-animator-publisher-photographer-web-designers everywhere rejoice!

Re: Good software knows when to stop

#182

Post by carlosjobim »

criddell wrote: post #39
grishka wrote: post #28

Definitely that, a finite scope is good and finished software is beautiful. But also, most of the modern software is in what I call "eternal beta". The assumption that your users always have an internet connection creates a perverse incentive structure where "you can always ship an update", and in most cases there's one singular stream of updates so new features (that no one asked for btw) and bug fixes can't be deco…

I moved to Obsidian after Evernote increased their subscription prices beyond the point I could justify and I think Obsidian is heading down the same path Evernote did. They keep adding more and more features to it when I wish they would call it complete and move it into maintenance mode. For me, the turning point for Obsidian was their Canvas feature. That was a big move beyond the initial design of it being an exce…

> beyond the point I could justify

Your accountant was calling you at late hours asking you what the hell was going on with your note taking expenses?

Re: Good software knows when to stop

#184

Post by john_strinlai »

amatecha wrote: post #175
john_strinlai wrote: post #12

> Ignore feature requests — don't build what users ask for; understand the underlying problem instead not quite in the same area, but this advice reminds me of blizzard and world of warcraft. for years and years, people requested a "classic" WoW (for non-players, the classic version is an almost bug-for-bug copy of the original 2004-2005 version of the game). for years and years, the reply from blizzard was "you thin…

Asking for WoW Classic isn't a feature request, that's asking for an entire game. People asking for it want to go back to how WoW was a decade+ earlier. The issue about "ignore feature requests" is talking about features for the existing software that distract from the overall goal/purpose of the software.

please read the last paragraph of my comment.

(you could also note that in the first ~10 words, i say "this reminds me of blizzard" instead of "this is exactly like blizzard".)

Re: Good software knows when to stop

#186

Post by collinfunk »

twitchard wrote: post #145

Coreutils gets updates regularly! https://gitweb.git.savannah.gnu.org/gitweb/?p=coreutils.git Even `ls` gets news flags from time to time. I think "stopping" is great for software that people want to be stable (like `ls`) but lots of software (web frameworks, SaaS) people start using specifically because they want a stream of updates and they want their software to get better over time.

The bar for adding new options, especially short options, is quite high for coreutils. We have a (likely outdated) page of rejected requests [1]. Some of the changes people have strong feelings about...

[1] https://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/rejected_requests.htm...

Re: Good software knows when to stop

#187

Post by andai »

john_strinlai wrote: post #12

> Ignore feature requests — don't build what users ask for; understand the underlying problem instead not quite in the same area, but this advice reminds me of blizzard and world of warcraft. for years and years, people requested a "classic" WoW (for non-players, the classic version is an almost bug-for-bug copy of the original 2004-2005 version of the game). for years and years, the reply from blizzard was "you thin…

There was a similar situation with Old School RuneScape.

If I recall correctly, at some point a pirate server running an old version of RuneScape became more popular than the actual game. So then they made their own official "classic" version of the game. I think it's more popular than the "main" one now.

Re: Good software knows when to stop

#188

Post by woggy »

latexr wrote: post #135
bob1029 wrote: post #64

I think notepad.exe is the strongest example of this right now. The amount of hacking required to even be allowed to re-associate text files with that particular exe on Win11 was shocking to me. I get that windows is extremely hostile to its users as a general policy, but this one felt extra special.

> I think notepad.exe is the strongest example of this right now. It’s a strong bad example, i.e. an example of software with doesn’t know when to stop. https://blogs.windows.com/windows-insider/2026/01/21/notepad... https://msrc.microsoft.com/update-guide/vulnerability/CVE-20...

Yes - now I actually have to wait for notepad to start up.

Re: Good software knows when to stop

#189

Post by al_borland »

wenbin wrote: post #47

We should normalize "finished" software products that stop feature creep and focus strictly on bug fixes and security updates. It takes real courage for a builder to say, "It’s good enough. It’s complete. It serves the core use cases well." If people want more features? Great, make it a separate product under a new brand. Evernote and Dropbox were perfect in 2012. Adding more features just to chase new user growth of…

I think the hard part is understanding if “finished” software is still maintained.

I’ll pick on AppZapper here. It doesn’t need to do much, it’s a Mac app that finds the files related to an application and deletes them, for a complete uninstall. It released in 2006, with v2 coming out in 2010. The website looks like it’s still from that era and the last update was in 2020, almost 6 years ago. To be fair, it’s a cool app, from the “delicious” design era. It makes a ray gun “zap” sound as it uninstalls an apps, for no reason other than to be fun. It’s great.

Is it still in active maintenance with nothing to do, and there have been no meaningful changes in how apps are installed in the last 6 years, or has it been abandoned? I really don’t know. If I’m a new user trying to decide if I should pay $20 for this app, what do I do?

I don’t want updates for updates sake, as that leads to enshitification, but there needs to be some sign that a user isn’t throwing money at a dead product. Or in the ls example, developing a workflow around a dead tool.

A ran into a similar question with Yojimbo. It also launched in 2006. When v2 came out it was a paid upgrade and seemed fairly minor for how much was being charged (at least to a broke college student). It felt like they didn’t really care about it. But here we are 20 years later and it still seems to be going. But it was 14 years between v2 and v3, and the last release was in 2023. With 14 years of support, maybe that v2 would have been a worthwhile upgrade for me in hindsight, but when they go years without an update, I start to question if I should be looking to something with more support. Should a new user buy and invest time in putting their data into something that hasn’t been updated in 3 years, or is that a red flag?

These are the things I struggle with.

Re: Good software knows when to stop

#190

Post by bitwize »

latexr wrote: post #135
bob1029 wrote: post #64

I think notepad.exe is the strongest example of this right now. The amount of hacking required to even be allowed to re-associate text files with that particular exe on Win11 was shocking to me. I get that windows is extremely hostile to its users as a general policy, but this one felt extra special.

> I think notepad.exe is the strongest example of this right now. It’s a strong bad example, i.e. an example of software with doesn’t know when to stop. https://blogs.windows.com/windows-insider/2026/01/21/notepad... https://msrc.microsoft.com/update-guide/vulnerability/CVE-20...

A Strong Bad example? Isn't he still on DOS, rocking it command.com style?
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