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My spicy take on vibe coding for PMs

ddmckinnon.com

181–190 of 202 posts

Re: My spicy take on vibe coding for PMs

#181

I think technical PMs or product oriented developers are the future most valuable people.

You make a better product if you plan it out first. That’s part of a PM’s job so it’s natural fit when the ai does the coding. The code may not be ideal but it’ll have the structure you can improve on.

The entire evolution of software engineering has been focused on how to plan a product. Because 99% of the time the problem IS NOT writing code. It's writing the wrong code. The wrong requirements, for the wrong people, for use cases nobody cares about.

Re: My spicy take on vibe coding for PMs

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate this is satire, or marketing, but I'll engage: in this scenario how is the SaaS generating millions if anyone can just prompt their own?

The SaaS comes with a complimentary blow job. In the future, prostitutes no longer work the street corner and you no longer roll up. No no, prostitutes vibe code apps nobody asks for with subtle hints in it that they're offering their services. Then, clients buy it as a proxy. Law enforcement isn't prepared for this!

I don't see this happening. Even today, I can place a bet on a prediction market that nobody women will give me a blow job tonight, a lady of the night then places a counter bet wagering that I will, and shows up at my house.

Services in individual apps are a thing of the past.

Re: My spicy take on vibe coding for PMs

#183

I am one of those PMs at a big tech that just shipped a PR in prod: My take: 1. Doing this moves my team faster. I now use sourcegraph MCP all the time to file much better bugs. And when the actual bug fixing TAT is larger than bug filing TAT, I rather just do it myself. My engineers appreciate it, truly. 2. This not only helps me do bug filing but just get comfortable with code. And this improves my PRDs, my MVPs an…

Code is extremely evil because you can accidently write ++a instead of a++ and create a bug so severe and so hidden you bring down the whole company.

I work at a company that does payroll software. Its not atypical for me to spend an entire week to write one singular line of code. Because in order to write that line and be confident it's correct, will always be correct, and cannot have any side effects, I have to read and understand so much other code.

The older the codebase is, the worse it gets. The larger the codebase is, the worse it gets. The more valuable your customers are, the worse it gets. That's why free consumer software is riddled with bugs and nobody cares.

Re: My spicy take on vibe coding for PMs

#184
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't ignore the context here. These are people hired to develop software for a company. They have an obligation to do so efficiently, with sufficient quality, and while balancing the company's short term and longer term business needs. I think it's great that software development has been opened up by LLMs. Everyone should at least try it, IMO. But your company's source isn't your personal playground and you shouldn…

I agree that a company’s codebase isn’t a playground and I know+feel those obligations. My reaction is more to the broader tone of some of these discussions. In my experience engineering cultures can become quite dogmatic or obstructive, and that can block improvements just as much as the opposite problem. At our definitely-non-Meta-scale, we’ve been experimenting with letting more of the team get their own PRs up wi…

There's a reason engineers tend to be dogmatic about things. It doesn't just come from nowhere. Is it misguided sometimes? Yes. But far more often than not, there are very good reasons why those with experience seem "dogmatic and obstructive".

Re: My spicy take on vibe coding for PMs

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I read takes like this and I feel like it's gatekeeping Yeah man, insisting on good engineering practices instead of "vibes" has always been gatekeeping That's the actual point of engineering credentials What are we even doing here

This was before the bot could competently code things. Software development is now a very different beast, and yes while there have been some very stupid and irresponsible uses of this new technology, many others are integrating it effectively into their workflows.

Hard disagree. Software engineering was never about writing code. It's not a completely different beast, not really. It's just way cheaper to write code now. And anyone who has been doing this for a long time already knows, more code usually = more problems

Re: My spicy take on vibe coding for PMs

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scrum is management consulting companies trying to keep their job by turning something that would make them irrelevant (the agile manifesto) into something that requires tons of billable hours and useless qualifications like "scrum master". Seems to be working great for them.

The agile manifesto is about how to run a consulting company. "Customer collaboration over contract negotiation" is not something non-contracting software teams have to worry about, customer collaboration is important but there's no contract negotiation to prioritize it over.

I've worked at three very different companies where at least one member of the software team had to essentially negotiate for their project's budget and scope (and tacitly their jobs in some cases).

Re: My spicy take on vibe coding for PMs

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An easy correction is to only merge PRs from folks who are on the on call rota. Those not on rota can either join or have their PR receive heavy scrutiny

Nah, the rota is large enough that it will likely be somebody else’s problem anyway and the chances are even if it does land on them they just won’t answer the phone. Punishing mistakes with unpaid overtime has never been a good approach to quality. It just teaches management that they can get away with low quality because the engineers will pick up the pieces in their own time.

I think they meant to say that if the person isn't on the A-team call list, they aren't entitled to contribute without scrutiny.

Re: My spicy take on vibe coding for PMs

#188
post #6

Meta, and other large companies have been encouraging PMs to code, while I've seen many negative responses from engineers having to code review, debug, deal with production issues, etc. stemming from crappy code they don't understand. Metrics and KPIs are being gamed into stupid incentives like lines of code, commits, and tickets closed. Leadership claims they are aware of Goodhart's Law, but their actions show other…

Good business types can massively improve a tech company. The issue is there aren’t many good ones

Re: My spicy take on vibe coding for PMs

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got laid off at a job where this applied, then at another company got rejected because they cancelled the position altogether to use Agentic Coding by Microsoft instead. Then I joined a small consultancy that just lets me build however I want. There's no reviews, no sprint reviews, no evaluation. They trust that you work on what is important. While this is a very messy and unmaintained workflow, it is a lot nicer a…

You're right, but you're going to be inundated with "but real scrum has never been tried" types.

> "but real scrum has never been tried" types.

Im one of these people. I do think for real that what most companies do is basically project management that wears the skin of scrum, and in most organizations beyond a certain size having that type of agile work and flexibility is basically impossible.

Re: My spicy take on vibe coding for PMs

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is of course a complicated question. The US has many tax jurisdictions and widely variable cost of living, and jobs vary a lot. But I could compare, say, a Google engineer in Paris vs Seattle. A Google senior software engineer in Paris earns €168k per year (according to levels.fyi) and takes home €96k after a 43% effective tax rate. A Google senior engineer in Seattle earns €336k and takes home €239k after 29% t…

What use is earning all that extra cash if you're working yourself to death with no way to enjoy the money? I work in a large international org and despite the people in the US earning a lot more than their EU counterparts, they also pretty much universally seem more miserable, are working all sorts of odd hours, have basically no holidays (the amount of times I've gotten a "Vacation again!?" questions from people in…

It's a reasonable question, and one that I've debated at length with friends, but which cannot be addressed satisfactorily in a brief exchange of internet comments :)

During the golden years of big tech in the states, when employee retention was king and it was pretty much impossible to fire someone who wasn't completely useless, I think it was a pretty good deal. Although East Coast work culture has always been pretty intense as you describe, a lot of West Coast people I know had good balance between work and everything else. Some people chose to work very hard and chase promotions, and others chose to go home early and spend their time with family or doing hobbies, and both ways were considered acceptable. The better companies offered 5 weeks of vacation, and people would go completely offline during that time, although some people would have to be cajoled by their managers to actually take the time off.

Recently it feels like things in the US have gotten much more intense and stressful, although the pay is as high as ever it does feel less worth it. People compete with their coworkers not just for promotion but for survival. There are still pockets where you can have both high pay and some sense of job security, but they are much scarcer than before.

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