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TikTok settles just before social media addiction trial to begin

bbc.com

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Re: TikTok settles just before social media addiction trial to begin

#181

Post by Quarrelsome »

card_zero wrote: post #179
Quarrelsome wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see your angle but I worry the "free will" premise sleep walks us into manipulation. People are vulnerable to the The Psychology of Persuasion (Robert B Cialdini). My perspective might be a bit nannying but I think we're arguing the nation-building vs individualism axis and the free-will vs regulation axis. For example, smoking has some benefits, its a cheap stimulent, helps you focus, good for people with undiagno…

Hey, that's a lot of assuming the conclusion. I meant that the piano-player has free will in the sense that she's not addicted. I don't want to argue for the right to use addictive drugs, I'm trying to establish whether TikTok is one.

and the "health food influencer" and subliminals? They're similar setups. Online advertising creates a perverse incentive and this was formerly constrained by the gatekeeping of traditional print media, but the internet does away with that constraint by making publishing a free-for-all.

We're already in a future where "news entertainment" has replaced news and journalism is inherently unprofitable because it lacks the same attention grabbing properties of not caring for the truth. The new chapter in this is that "news entertainment" doesn't need on the ground journalism, and advertising rates pay better in the developing world. This means that all the facebook grandmas and grandads as well as the children are getting hooked on foreign-based indignance mills that are not regulated in the slightest. These foreign-based "news entertainment" shows only care for impressions, so simply re-enforce the desired ignorance of their audiences and tend towards pushing bigoted world views, in some cases even encouraging racism towards the very countries that are actually producing the content! In the very worst case scenarios foreign state actors use these channels in order to push their propaganda and stir up unrest in rival nation states.

It is free will, but in the big picture, its harmful to society.

Re: TikTok settles just before social media addiction trial to begin

#182

Post by chromehearts »

ajam1507 wrote: post #99
jader201 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I feel the exact same about cheeseburgers. The problem with analogies to things like cheeseburgers, gambling, drugs, cigarettes, etc., is: 1. Availability -- you have to go somewhere to acquire/participate in these things* 2. Cost -- you have to have money to spend. That is, it's not something you can consume/participate in for free -- you have to have money to spend. * Gambling is theoretically freely availabl…

So what you're saying is that we should ban porn then?

Yes

Re: TikTok settles just before social media addiction trial to begin

#183

Post by card_zero »

notpushkin wrote: post #178
card_zero wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think about pinball? Is it bad for us, should we sue?

If we look at the effects, no, I don’t think so. I see how pinball could be optimized for addictiveness, but I don’t see a lot of people devoting all their free time to it. Now, it is more nuanced than that. Is addiction bad for us? And at what point do we say we’re addicted to something? For me personally, when I can’t stop doing something (say, watching YouTube instead of working on a project), I won’t be happy lon…

One question is, even if I unwisely stay up all night doing something (reading comics, say), how do we decide whether to blame the thing for tricking me, or whether it's my own responsibility? Another question is, do we even know our own minds and truly know when we're being unwise? I note that many binges that I would have beaten myself up over at the time were in retrospect great, and the worthy things I assumed I should have been doing instead were actually pointless. So this suggests to me that having an authority dictate to, e.g., comic publishers "you are tempting the public into unwise habits, desist" would be a bad thing because the authority doesn't actually know what's unwise much better than we do.

Re: TikTok settles just before social media addiction trial to begin

#184

Post by nobodywillobsrv »

Quarrelsome wrote: post #160
card_zero wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if things interest you, does that not also provide dopamine? If the interesting things are easily available, are they "free" and addictive and bad? If they're good because they're interesting, is TikTok not interesting to those who like it? If you had a pinball machine and it distracted you, would that be bad, or a hobby? Is TikTok more compelling than pinball because of the algorithm? Is the algorithm not merely…

these products are intentionally designed to be addictive by some of the greatest minds of our generation. If you were intentionally designing society this would be the opposite of what you'd do. Our children are effectively enslaved through basic trinkets and manipulation to serve as eye-balls for ad impressions to fuel equity value in silicon valley. It's fucked and it was intentionally designed to be this fucked.…

It's worth stating that addictive tech is addictive partly because it doesn't work very well.

So they build useful things and then make them pretty bad and less useful. If they were useful your interest or need would complete and you would move on.

Fundamentally I think it is important to say this. Addiction confounds some things in the space of designed systems

Re: TikTok settles just before social media addiction trial to begin

#185

Post by Quarrelsome »

nobodywillobsrv wrote: post #184
Quarrelsome wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

these products are intentionally designed to be addictive by some of the greatest minds of our generation. If you were intentionally designing society this would be the opposite of what you'd do. Our children are effectively enslaved through basic trinkets and manipulation to serve as eye-balls for ad impressions to fuel equity value in silicon valley. It's fucked and it was intentionally designed to be this fucked.…

It's worth stating that addictive tech is addictive partly because it doesn't work very well. So they build useful things and then make them pretty bad and less useful. If they were useful your interest or need would complete and you would move on. Fundamentally I think it is important to say this. Addiction confounds some things in the space of designed systems

Spot on. Like how Facebook used to be quite useful to stay in touch with friends, or how dating websites used to be kinda decent to find like-MINDED people but have now all been enshittified in order to keep people on them.

Re: TikTok settles just before social media addiction trial to begin

#186

Post by obidee2 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #157
clipsy wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But kids don't know their own allergies and limits, because they're kids. That's the point .

> kids don't know their own allergies and limits, because they're kids. That's the point Counterpoint: Halloween. Most kids are competent enough to manage their survival in such circumstances. Some are not. And sometimes it’s not the parents’ fault. But if a community is raising a generation too imbecilic to choose if they can eat chocolate, their life path is sort of already written.

Halloween happens once a year, that’s a big reason it’s tolerated. Also, many parents do provide guidance/control over how much and how fast the candy is eaten. Because otherwise everyone suffers.

The better comparison is what if there was a bottomless bucket of candy in your 10 year olds room all the time.

Re: TikTok settles just before social media addiction trial to begin

#187

Post by card_zero »

Quarrelsome wrote: post #181
card_zero wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, that's a lot of assuming the conclusion. I meant that the piano-player has free will in the sense that she's not addicted. I don't want to argue for the right to use addictive drugs, I'm trying to establish whether TikTok is one.

and the "health food influencer" and subliminals? They're similar setups. Online advertising creates a perverse incentive and this was formerly constrained by the gatekeeping of traditional print media, but the internet does away with that constraint by making publishing a free-for-all. We're already in a future where "news entertainment" has replaced news and journalism is inherently unprofitable because it lacks th…

Right, yeah. "Misleading", like you say. That health food guy's a shyster (like the snake oil salesmen of yore), and algorithms can sometimes send a feed into a shyster-like mode. So now we come down to terminology: addiction is the wrong word, deception is the right one. This isn't purely semantic, it's a different kind of hold over people. More cognitive.

Sidetrack: I had the idea recently that unscrupulous advertising might be a tragedy of the commons for the clients en masse, and harmful for the economy in general. Based on the intuition that lying can't be doing any good.

Re: TikTok settles just before social media addiction trial to begin

#188

Post by noitpmeder »

Andr2Andr wrote: post #67
noitpmeder wrote: post #5

This case reads like a single individual suing these companies What is to stop other individuals from filing the same suit and expecting similar outcomes?

It is a bellwether trial, a test of sorts combining hundreds of similar cases. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellwether_trial

So wouldn't the fact that settlements are pouring in literally prove other can do it too?

Re: TikTok settles just before social media addiction trial to begin

#189

Post by notpushkin »

card_zero wrote: post #183
notpushkin wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we look at the effects, no, I don’t think so. I see how pinball could be optimized for addictiveness, but I don’t see a lot of people devoting all their free time to it. Now, it is more nuanced than that. Is addiction bad for us? And at what point do we say we’re addicted to something? For me personally, when I can’t stop doing something (say, watching YouTube instead of working on a project), I won’t be happy lon…

One question is, even if I unwisely stay up all night doing something (reading comics, say), how do we decide whether to blame the thing for tricking me, or whether it's my own responsibility? Another question is, do we even know our own minds and truly know when we're being unwise? I note that many binges that I would have beaten myself up over at the time were in retrospect great, and the worthy things I assumed I…

We can look at intent: comic publishers want to make them interesting and capture your attention for some time, but do they make them addictive? And we can also look at the scale – if a product is reliably addictive across a wide audience, it might be bad for society, not just for individuals. If both criteria are met, it’s probably reasonable to blame the “dealer” of the thing in question.

But I agree that we should be able to decide for ourselves what is good for us – delegating it to authority isn’t a great solution, it should always be our own responsibility. We should, however, be especially cautious when making decisions about things that are known to be addictive for others.

Re: TikTok settles just before social media addiction trial to begin

#190

Post by Quarrelsome »

card_zero wrote: post #187
Quarrelsome wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and the "health food influencer" and subliminals? They're similar setups. Online advertising creates a perverse incentive and this was formerly constrained by the gatekeeping of traditional print media, but the internet does away with that constraint by making publishing a free-for-all. We're already in a future where "news entertainment" has replaced news and journalism is inherently unprofitable because it lacks th…

Right, yeah. "Misleading", like you say. That health food guy's a shyster (like the snake oil salesmen of yore), and algorithms can sometimes send a feed into a shyster-like mode. So now we come down to terminology: addiction is the wrong word, deception is the right one. This isn't purely semantic, it's a different kind of hold over people. More cognitive. Sidetrack: I had the idea recently that unscrupulous adverti…

> addiction is the wrong word

I used that word mostly because of the name of that book "Hooked".

> like the snake oil salesmen of yore

the problem is that you could run that guy out of town in the past and his damage was localised. Nowadays he can be the biggest player in town.

> Sidetrack: I had the idea recently that unscrupulous advertising might be a tragedy of the commons for the clients en masse, and harmful for the economy in general. Based on the intuition that lying can't be doing any good.

I'd go further and state that all advertising is bad, but I might be a touch too radical. Also it might be too late, given how strong "native advertising" and product placement now is. The content and the adverts have merged. LLMs might offer some brief respite as I think it will be hard to reliably advertise inside that content.

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