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The UK is shaping a future of precrime and dissent management (2025)

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Re: The UK is shaping a future of precrime and dissent management (2025)

#181

Post by skippyboxedhero »

geremiiah wrote: post #21
spacebanana7 wrote: post #8

This is how you govern from a position of unpopularity. The government knows they’re on the wrong side of many issues, to the point they know they can’t win an open debate. So media control, regulation by enforcement, and institutional control becomes the focus of effort.

There seems to be a prevalent notion within UK establishment circles, "we are being attacked from both sides, therefore we must be right/balanced/fair", which is totally not how it works. You see used for example to defend the supposed impartiality of the BBC.

One thing that is often missed in this narrative is that the UK has a voting system which was explicitly designed to counteract this issue reaching definitive results with the minimum amount of consensus.

I agree with you but I think this idea of being "fair" is something that is said but no-one actually believes in. Most recent government is one of the most extreme examples of this: do things that annoys everyone, say you are just being "fair" because everyone is annoyed...it doesn't make sense.

To say this another way, there is genuinely an easier option: stop doing things that people do not want.

Re: The UK is shaping a future of precrime and dissent management (2025)

#182

Post by FpUser »

simmerup wrote: post #61
FpUser wrote: post #18

I wonder at what point these countries will loose any moral ground against the likes of Russia, China etc. Up until this point it was mostly that they would gladly fuck the other countries up but treated their own people way better than the other camp. But this difference is disappearing. Of course there is always North Korea and other totally fucked up regimes they could use to compare and look white and fluffy

Iran used machine guns in protesters China used tanks against students Russia still has gulags for people who criticise the government You’re incredibly naive if you think they’re the same as us

>"You’re incredibly naive if you think they’re the same as us"

And you are "incredibly" inattentive (considering the best case). I did not say they're "the same as us", I said they're heading there. Depending on what particular country we are talking about mileage can vary.

Re: The UK is shaping a future of precrime and dissent management (2025)

#183

Post by tdeck »

JCattheATM wrote: post #168
iamnothere wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, now that you mention it I’ve seen the same sort of thing from people who are definitely not bots. Although, you can’t discount the possibility that they do some government or law enforcement work as a consultant. The full throated defense of police state tactics is unreal. (For what it’s worth, there are plenty of Americans who show up in Palantir/Flock threads doing the same thing, and I have the same suspicio…

For a current example look at the other guy replying to my comments, earnestly trying to equate 'free speech zones' in the US which have not been a thing in years, maybe more than a decade, with people in the UK being arrested for holding up blank signs. I can't imagine it's paid work because what would be the point? It's not like he is influencing anyone's opinions.

> free speech zones' in the US which have not been a thing in years, maybe more than a decade

This is from 2024

https://www.thefire.org/news/how-milwaukee-and-chicago-circu...

Re: The UK is shaping a future of precrime and dissent management (2025)

#184

Post by mytailorisrich »

iamflimflam1 wrote: post #177
mytailorisrich wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He was of the opinion that the best thing for the UK economy was Brexit I don't want to start another Brexit debate or even take position on it. However I'd like to point out that the key with Brexit is the plan on what to do afterwards and that is what has been completely lacking. Whatever one's opinion of Cummings, he did put forward a plan and that plan was never attempted (probably too bold, shall we say, for p…

I would say “could not possibly be implemented” rather than “bold”. Anyone can propose a brave or bold course of action. It’s very rare these people have any idea how to actually execute their plans.

I think one issue we are having is that more and more things are said to be impossible to implement to the point that nothing happens... There is a lack of ambition, boldness, and leadership.

Re: The UK is shaping a future of precrime and dissent management (2025)

#185

Post by RansomStark »

erichocean wrote: post #166
throwaway85825 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK is FPTP. Reform split the previously unified conservative vote so labour won with a historically low %.

Total Reform + Conservative vote was at historical lows as a percentage of the electorate.

That might be true, but the votes (not seats, first past the post, almost guarantees people aren't represented): Labour: 9.7M Conservatives 6.8M Reform: 4.1M Liberal Democrats 3.5M

The point clearly stands that had Reform not been a thing, 2024 would have been a conservative landslide.

What we got was a Labour landslide, what we should have got was some coalition.

Re: The UK is shaping a future of precrime and dissent management (2025)

#186

Post by iamflimflam1 »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #184
iamflimflam1 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say “could not possibly be implemented” rather than “bold”. Anyone can propose a brave or bold course of action. It’s very rare these people have any idea how to actually execute their plans.

I think one issue we are having is that more and more things are said to be impossible to implement to the point that nothing happens... There is a lack of ambition, boldness, and leadership.

I don’t know.

Increasingly I see people offering simplistic solutions that don’t even pass basic smell tests.

And then when you point out the obvious flaws the response is that you just have to be brave or take a risk.

But I do agree - we seem to be in a world full of intractable problems and doing something may be better than nothing.

Re: The UK is shaping a future of precrime and dissent management (2025)

#187

Post by dfxm12 »

geremiiah wrote: post #21
spacebanana7 wrote: post #8

This is how you govern from a position of unpopularity. The government knows they’re on the wrong side of many issues, to the point they know they can’t win an open debate. So media control, regulation by enforcement, and institutional control becomes the focus of effort.

There seems to be a prevalent notion within UK establishment circles, "we are being attacked from both sides, therefore we must be right/balanced/fair", which is totally not how it works. You see used for example to defend the supposed impartiality of the BBC.

The obvious implication is that "balance" between freedom and surveillance just moves things away from freedom.

Of course, on the note of being attacked from "both" sides, there are often more than two sides to a story. Also, not every side has to be, or maybe even should be, considered with equal weight.

Re: The UK is shaping a future of precrime and dissent management (2025)

#188

Post by lavezzi »

baal80spam wrote: post #143

UK dystopia: accelerating (Precrime) EU dystopia: accelerating (Chat Control) US dystopia: probably accelerating? What a time to be alive!

> US dystopia: probably accelerating?

Yeah, absolutely no indicators whatsoever we can go off of right now.

Re: The UK is shaping a future of precrime and dissent management (2025)

#189

Post by tdeck »

tialaramex wrote: post #120
azangru wrote: post #48

> The focus of policing is also shifting. As street crime continues to fall, more attention is directed toward protest, dissent, and the perceived risk of unrest. Does street crime in fact continue to fall? I keep hearing about bicycles getting stolen, or how in London, mobile phones get snatched. It was also common to hear how police fails to prosecute various kinds of crime (usually mentioned in contrast to how the…

One of the really boring things about crime stats is that if you insist that "Nobody will do anything" and so you don't bother to report crimes, the crime stats go down -- because you didn't report a crime. It suits a certain kind of person to have this obvious statistical fact portrayed as some sort of failing of existing institutions. Because it's just how statistics work it won't magically change if you're dumb en…

While this sounds true, it's also true that police often will try to bully you into abandoning a crime report or treat you with contempt of they don't consider the crime "worthwhle". So not only do you not get a resolution, as expected, but you get to waste your time and be treated poorly. All that to increment a couter that might in aggregate reach a number that might get noticed by someone that might result in a policy that might 5 years later start to address the problem but may also just be used to crack down on everyone's rights as part of a right wing fear campaign? It's nowhere near as clear cut as waiting in line or picking up litter.

Re: The UK is shaping a future of precrime and dissent management (2025)

#190

Post by canucker2016 »

pjc50 wrote: post #71
azangru wrote: post #48

> The focus of policing is also shifting. As street crime continues to fall, more attention is directed toward protest, dissent, and the perceived risk of unrest. Does street crime in fact continue to fall? I keep hearing about bicycles getting stolen, or how in London, mobile phones get snatched. It was also common to hear how police fails to prosecute various kinds of crime (usually mentioned in contrast to how the…

Anecdote is not data. It is both true that the police absolutely suck at handling petty crime, and the Met have a fairly terrible reputation; and that more serious violent crime is much, much less of a problem in London than it used to be (and less than US cities, of course).

from https://www.nytimes.com/2025/10/15/world/europe/london-polic...

  A record 80,000 phones were stolen in the city last year [inferred to be 2024], according to the police, giving London an undesirable reputation as a European capital for the crime.

  Overall crime in London has fallen in recent years, but phone theft is disproportionately high, representing about 70 percent of thefts last year. And it has risen sharply: The 80,000 phone thefts last year were a stark increase from the 64,000 in 2023, the police told a parliamentary committee in June.

  That is partly because this crime is both “very lucrative” and “lower risk” than car theft or drug dealing, Cmdr. Andrew Featherstone, the police officer leading the effort to tackle phone theft, told a news conference. Thieves can make up to £300 (about $400) per device — more than triple the national minimum wage for a day’s work.

  And they know they are unlikely to be caught. Police data shows about 106,000 phones were reported stolen in London from March 2024 to February 2025. Only 495 people were charged or were given a police caution, meaning they admitted to an offense.
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