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The mineral riches hiding under Greenland's ice

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Re: The mineral riches hiding under Greenland's ice

#181

Post by tock »

joakleaf wrote: post #178
tock wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep I vividly remember Tony Blair supporting the war. Millions dead. People just went on with their lives with a "oops". I'm just saying this behaviour is nothing new. Might makes right I guess.

You are right. People went on with their lives, just as they did in many other parts of the world, but I don't think what happened is forgotten -- Not even in the US. Btw. as far as I remember neither China, India, Russia, nor practically any other nation stopped trading with the US over the war in Iraq. Maybe I am wrong about that. Small detail on casualties in Iraq: the estimates listed on Wikipedia range from 150K…

> Btw. as far as I remember neither China, India, Russia, nor practically any other nation stopped trading with the US over the war in Iraq. Maybe I am wrong about that.

Yep. Because countries only care about themselves. The US is too important economically. But are you saying that Europe like India and China does stuff that benefits them and isn't a better standard morally?

Re: The mineral riches hiding under Greenland's ice

#182

Post by Jensson »

ninalanyon wrote: post #164
Rainbooow wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it really basic economics that free market leads to monopolies? I thought this is not something where there is a strong consensus about ; free market advocates will actually argue that this is regulation that leads to monopolies.

Of course they lead to monopolies. If you start with a large number of equally capable suppliers and one somehow gains an edge then that one will be more profitable than the rest allowing it to invest and reduce its costs. This makes it even more competitive and provides a positive feedback loop. Eventually its competitors go bankrupt or get bought out by it. Regulation can certainly exacerbate the problem, for insta…

But that isn't happening though, you have local specialists everywhere that global giants still can't outcompete. Amazon is only dominant in USA and so on, they mostly just dominate a regulatory environment and can't compete well outside of it.

Re: The mineral riches hiding under Greenland's ice

#183

Post by esseph »

Jensson wrote: post #182
ninalanyon wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course they lead to monopolies. If you start with a large number of equally capable suppliers and one somehow gains an edge then that one will be more profitable than the rest allowing it to invest and reduce its costs. This makes it even more competitive and provides a positive feedback loop. Eventually its competitors go bankrupt or get bought out by it. Regulation can certainly exacerbate the problem, for insta…

But that isn't happening though, you have local specialists everywhere that global giants still can't outcompete. Amazon is only dominant in USA and so on, they mostly just dominate a regulatory environment and can't compete well outside of it.

Amazon does a lot these days, are you talking about their ground satellite terminal service? Grocery Service? What about Online Pharmacy? Do you need to buy a car? Would you like some satellite internet? Do you need a k8s cluster, they'll even handle lifecycle management for you. They also seem well on their way toward seriously hurting the USPS, FedEx, and UPS, and will be outpacing the entire US Postal Service in total volume as of 2028. Would you like to watch a movie or buy an album? Health insurance?

I'm of course talking about maybe 1/50th of the services they offer these days, it is extensive.

"competing"

Re: The mineral riches hiding under Greenland's ice

#184

Post by esseph »

versale wrote: post #96
MrGilbert wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was young, back in school, I asked my teacher why the main purpose of a company is to grow. Their response was: "Because it has to be." I don't think we need unlimited growth. Or, better: We CANNOT have unlimited growth, because there is a natural limit to the resources that are available. We, as a society, should do better than this. And that is what worries me: The sheer ignorance (or unawareness?) people ha…

Well, a company has to grow. If it doesn't, it'll be devoured by those who do and show pleasing YoY metrics to their shareholders and prospective investors. Simply imagine you are an investor. Which company would you put your money in? And since the world is limited a company cannot afford not growing if it wants to survive. Government regulation is impossible, because there are other governments which happily let th…

Maybe that very shareholder market is the problem.

Re: The mineral riches hiding under Greenland's ice

#185

Post by joakleaf »

tock wrote: post #181
joakleaf wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right. People went on with their lives, just as they did in many other parts of the world, but I don't think what happened is forgotten -- Not even in the US. Btw. as far as I remember neither China, India, Russia, nor practically any other nation stopped trading with the US over the war in Iraq. Maybe I am wrong about that. Small detail on casualties in Iraq: the estimates listed on Wikipedia range from 150K…

> Btw. as far as I remember neither China, India, Russia, nor practically any other nation stopped trading with the US over the war in Iraq. Maybe I am wrong about that. Yep. Because countries only care about themselves. The US is too important economically. But are you saying that Europe like India and China does stuff that benefits them and isn't a better standard morally?

Neither Europe nor EU is a single country with a single foreign policy. There are around 40 different small and large countries in Europe each with their own foreign policy, history, culture and language. Two of the countries are currently at war with each other (if we still include Russia in Europe). Historically, Europe is a continent of wars and full of disagreement, where countries have done much to benefit themselves.

I really don't know much of what is happening in China or India or how you would ever measure something as subjective as morality. The point was, that it isn't just European (or EU) nations that don't stand up to the US. Nobody really dare -- Even those other heavy-weights. So it doesn't seem fair to me to single Europe (European nations) out for not doing anything.

I would say that Europe has a lot of bad history and guilt and we know it. And there is an aspiration in many of the European countries to be better and do "the right thing" now, but it is definitely debatable whether those countries actually do it, or if we even know what "right" is.

Re: The mineral riches hiding under Greenland's ice

#186

Post by anonymousab »

verzali wrote: post #129
benrutter wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> unless of course the US also plans to bulldoze Greenland's sovereignty. It's probably not helpful for me to speculate, but surely this? If the US is truly prepared to invade another ally's territory for material gain, I'd assume the idea that they'd honor other existing laws is unlikely.

I don't see how it would actually work in practice. Can Trump really destroy Greenland's democracy via executive order? Surely Congress or the courts would have something to say about it? And even if not, how are you going to deal with all the people there? If Trump is ruling Greenland via executive order, then he is just a dictator, what happens to the people? It would end up as a long running sore and a terrible bl…

> Surely Congress or the courts would have something to say about it?

The entire mode of operation for the current administration is to ignore such things whenever they don't blindly rubber stamp or get out of the way. It has been very successful for them.

Re: The mineral riches hiding under Greenland's ice

#187

Post by cmurf »

ivan_gammel wrote: post #104
renegade-otter wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So are the citizens. Don't get me started on "corporations are people" bullshit. I use "citizen" with a much deeper meaning.

Citizens are subjects, they have active voice. You may mean something deeper, but others will happily support only the “active voice” part. Corporations must not have it. But in certain sense you are right. Corporate management should behave as citizens, and their citizen duties must be superior to their duties to shareholders.

Corporate charters require companies follow the law and make profit. Beyond following the law, what are citizen duties?

Public benefit corporations seem to go nowhere far enough. And I wonder if the language is intentionally vague at the outset.

For example:

https://www.sos.state.co.us/pubs/business/FAQs/pbc.html

Re: The mineral riches hiding under Greenland's ice

#188

Post by ivan_gammel »

cmurf wrote: post #187
ivan_gammel wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citizens are subjects, they have active voice. You may mean something deeper, but others will happily support only the “active voice” part. Corporations must not have it. But in certain sense you are right. Corporate management should behave as citizens, and their citizen duties must be superior to their duties to shareholders.

Corporate charters require companies follow the law and make profit. Beyond following the law, what are citizen duties? Public benefit corporations seem to go nowhere far enough. And I wonder if the language is intentionally vague at the outset. For example: https://www.sos.state.co.us/pubs/business/FAQs/pbc.html

> Beyond following the law, what are citizen duties?

Simple example: let’s say there’s an environmental law preventing corporation to make more profits. The good citizen should not try lobbying to repeal this law, even if this would be perfectly legal and lead to better outcome for shareholders. If CEO acts as good citizen and refuses to follow advice of the board and take this route, this should be legally defensible position.

Re: The mineral riches hiding under Greenland's ice

#189

Post by tock »

joakleaf wrote: post #185
tock wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Btw. as far as I remember neither China, India, Russia, nor practically any other nation stopped trading with the US over the war in Iraq. Maybe I am wrong about that. Yep. Because countries only care about themselves. The US is too important economically. But are you saying that Europe like India and China does stuff that benefits them and isn't a better standard morally?

Neither Europe nor EU is a single country with a single foreign policy. There are around 40 different small and large countries in Europe each with their own foreign policy, history, culture and language. Two of the countries are currently at war with each other (if we still include Russia in Europe). Historically, Europe is a continent of wars and full of disagreement, where countries have done much to benefit thems…

I don't think Europe should feel guilt or anything about their history. They are just operating like every other region prioritising their own citizens first.

I just hope all of this is a nothingburger. The last thing the world needs is a war between the west. But looks like globalisation is going to slow down regardless. Sad.

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