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I'm returning my Framework 16

yorickpeterse.com

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Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#181

Post by Terretta »

KerrAvon wrote: post #100
Frotag wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess repair-ability only matters if you expect the laptop to break. And there's no benchmarks for durability. But yeah I agree that upgrade-ability is of dubious value for most people.

Apple continues to be the elephant in the repairability room. You want something that likely won’t need repair ever for its useful lifetime, a current MacBook is worth looking at. Upgradeability, nope.

Having managed fleets of Macs (along with Windows and Linux machines) at last three $worksplace, repair/replace is no more hassle with Apple than Lenovo.

Arguably less, as if you have the right relationship with Apple, you can let your employee walk into any Genius Bar™ for fix, or walk into Apple Store or visit your own smart hands crew (with inventory on hand), for an incredibly straightforward swap.

And to your point, it's almost never needed.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#182

Post by cosmic_cheese »

comte7092 wrote: post #8

I appreciate the authors thoughtful review here, but I can’t help but be frustrated by the constant lack of understanding of the core value proposition of framework both in this post and in many comments here on hn. Frequently the author brings up that for 2,000 euros they expect a premium experience, but no where is there an evaluation of the value granted by upgradability and repeatability of the machine, and only…

The crux of the matter is that even if one values upgradability and repairability, neither is a frequent need for practically anybody. Reliable machines rarely need repairs outside of owner mistreatment, and most people I know who are technically capable enough to care about upgrading generally do it maybe once every 4-6 years, by which point hardware has usually advanced far enough that buying a new laptop is easy to justify.

So while upgradability and repairability are great to have, their material impact on day to day user experience is minimal, except maybe for people who have a tendency to severely underspec their initial hardware purchases. On the other hand, things like chassis rigidity, cooling performance, fan noise, and battery life being subpar are constant reminders that you spent a pretty penny on a laptop that's not meeting your needs.

The reality may be that wanting a laptop that's well rounded and competent across the board AND repairable+upgradable is akin to having your cake and eating it too, but that doesn't stop people from wanting it anyway.

As an aside, I believe that Framework could probably get closer to that ideal if they unchained themselves from the port module idea. Yes it's cool, but it forces all sorts of design compromises that otherwise wouldn't be necessary, and I'd bet that something like 80-90% of Framework buyers would be just as happy if changing ports required opening up the chassis, swapping out side plates, and doing a little bit of internal wiring.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#183

Post by YorickPeterse »

trueismywork wrote: post #167

> The Framework 16 weights about 2.2 kg according to my kitchen scale. For comparison, my X1 Carbon weights 1.3 kg. That may not seem like a big difference, but the extra kilogram makes carrying around the Framework 16 more difficult. In particular, I don't feel comfortable carrying it with just one hand while this isn't a problem with the X1. The author wanted a bigger laptop but the straight goes and compares it to…

> The author doesnt know what he wants and doesn't know what framework provides.

Indeed, I just pressed a "Buy now" button without a moment's thought. Clearly the fault is all mine.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#184

Post by paulbgd »

INTPenis wrote: post #125

As a long time Linux user I only recently tried my first framework (12), and shortly after got the 13 too because I realized that this is the laptop for me. I wish I had realized it earlier. But it's so refreshing as a linux user to use a laptop actually designed for linux, and have everything work so great out of box like battery and wifi. Sure I've always used Laptops famously Linux-friendly, but it was still hit o…

kinda similar experience with my thinkpad t14s gen 2 amd (what a name.) I like framework's philosophy, but there's so many refurbished business laptops out there (many unused) that I like upgrading every few years to a 3-4 yr old laptop.

Getting a laptop that's linux certified has been better than I thought, things like sleep and power management "Just Work" whereas on other laptops I'd spend more time configuring TLP or even just hibernating every time because I couldn't get a good sleep experience. Hope this inspires the other manufacturers to work on getting this working out of the box.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#185

Post by schmuckonwheels »

Framework 16 has a 6 port maximum.

6.

That means if you want:

- HDMI

- Ethernet (a must if you're doing real work)

- an audio jack (why is this even an option?)

- SD reader

- USB-A port

You are allowed (1) USB-C port. This is in a > $2200 laptop.

$200 netbooks had all this (minus the Ethernet port) standard 10 years ago.

This is unacceptable. An artificial limit imposed by the mechanicals of the inefficiently large port modules - an idea that should have never left a whiteboard, let alone made it into a production laptop.

On the bright side you are forced into configuring them as all USB-C, you can reuse the man purse you used to carry all your dongles from an earlier generation Macbook.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#186

Post by markus_zhang »

debo_ wrote: post #10

Author doesn't cite how they decided that only MacBook or Framework would fit their needs. I've never had trouble with Dell laptops with any Linux distro I cared about. If I wanted a powerful Linux laptop, I'd probably look at something like Dell's premium model: https://www.dell.com/en-ca/shop/laptops-ultrabooks/dell-16-p...

I bought a few refurbished Dell laptops/desktops in recent years, and while older models hold fine, more recent models broke down quite easily within a year. Sure all of them are refurbished models (purchased through official website) that cost from $400 CAD to $800 CAD but I'm sketchy of the build quality of recent models.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#187

Post by oldestofsports »

thiht wrote: post #97
vanviegen wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uhh... What?

Not sure why you’re being downvoted, that’s a ridiculous statement. 2000€ for a laptop is definitely premium pricing, not mid range.

I wouldn’t call anything with less than 64gb of memory premium, and if we look at macbooks were already looking above 3000

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#188

Post by InTheArena »

summa_tech wrote: post #153
InTheArena wrote: post #132

I ordered a framework desktop and got it "by accident" - in that I forgot that I had put down a deposit on a fully maxed out Ai MAX395+. After a few days of using it, I decided to keep it, and given how incredibly expensive 8tb NVMe drives and DDR5-8000 has beocme since then (even if you could get DDR-8000 on desktop form factor) - I don't regret that decision at all. It's a great little box - and AI is getting close…

I feel ya on the PCIe slot. And the on-board NICs are sub-par Realtek garbage, unacceptable both on features and quality. However, you can fit a small SFP+ card inside if you (a) cut out a correctly shaped hole in your case, and (b) turn the fan on at 40% instead of letting it turn off. The card will sit at a small angle but work fine, and with some 3D printing I even got a mounting bracket in to keep it stable. A lo…

Yeah, I was thinking of running a Occulink connector to the side of the case, the problem is that this would need a riser, and I don't think that occulink - even with a redriver, would do well with two additional physical connectors.

On the 5GB realtek - i think their 5G is far better then their 1g or 2.5g devices where.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#189

Post by SiempreViernes »

selkin wrote: post #134
izacus wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Life tip: Noone appreciates and there's no utility in nitpicking analogies. They're never the actual point of the message and it's incredibly rude and socially inept to lock onto a side quest like that.

idk, the OP is all about the author misunderstanding what they bought. Hence a comment about bikes not understanding bikes deserves just as much scrutiny. My own life tip: there are plenty of good analogies, so no need to choose use an example you are not familiar with.

With this comment you completely validate izacus (shaky) judgement call: when you write "a comment about bikes not understanding bikes" you are clearly more interested in being rude than pointing out a flaw in the analogy.

We all see that OP does understand bikes in the general sense, indeed the fact you are nitpicking instead of trying to explain one of the many fundamental difference means you think that as well.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#190

Post by trinsic2 »

jstummbillig wrote: post #161
comte7092 wrote: post #8

I appreciate the authors thoughtful review here, but I can’t help but be frustrated by the constant lack of understanding of the core value proposition of framework both in this post and in many comments here on hn. Frequently the author brings up that for 2,000 euros they expect a premium experience, but no where is there an evaluation of the value granted by upgradability and repeatability of the machine, and only…

> In contrast, Framework laptops has many supposed benefits: they're upgradable, repairable Why would you propose that the author does not care about these things? They clearly do, they are simply not a single issue voter – and who is, when buying something as complex as a laptop? There is a trade-off and the one that Framework made here is not hitting the mark for the author, and they go into some detail to explain…

IMHO I think its not helpful to be comparing Framework's price to whats currently on the market. You are paying for sustainability. If you are doing this I think you are missing the point. This isn't a apples to apples comparison.

I also feel the frustration of the parent, and I also see that many people don't want to pay or consider the ramifications of where we we are at right now in this given time. Most devices are designed to be throwaway, manufactures cut corners, operate at a loss. These are byproducts from our badly designed technology from a suitability perspective that have driven prices down in a unhealthy way IMHO.

Its like trying to compare prices between now and fifty years ago. If you want the world to be more sustainable, you need to consider that its going to cost more, its not going to be comparable to whats out there right now, and you are going to need to deal with the growing pains.

Comparing Framework laptop to whats out there today in terms of features is a losing proposition. The market is built around a lack of sustainability.

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