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Children with cancer scammed out of millions fundraised for their treatment

bbc.com

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Re: Children with cancer scammed out of millions fundraised for their treatment

#181

Post by jack_tripper »

sdoering wrote: post #128
nickpp wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any system needs a resource allocation algorithm. In capitalism it is easy and transparent: price, with the side effect of aligning society interests with those of the selfish individual. Of course the strange and heavily regulated US health-care system is obviously far far away from a free market. In socialism it's much more random: black markets, lists, lotteries, friends and network of connections. The side effect…

Can't think of a socialist country, but invite you to visit the German system. Significantly less costly for society and objectively better for the people falling ill (or just having a baby born). And no, no lists, no lotteries or any of that other lies the conservative US media is spewing out to keep the masses pacified. I strongly believe, that if US citizens were to experience German healthcare for a year and havi…

>And no, no lists

There definitely are lists. You don't just get the surgery or therapy you need the next day. You get the next free slot in the list of people queuing at the hospital/practice that still has free slots.

For example the first appointment you can get at my state funded therapist if you call today, will be in june. How is that "not a list"?

Or like, if you call most public GPs in my neighbourhood, they'll all tell you they're full and don't have slots to take on any new patients and you should "try somewhere else". How is that "not a list"?

Re: Children with cancer scammed out of millions fundraised for their treatment

#182

Post by jack_tripper »

KingMob wrote: post #146
nickpp wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any system needs a resource allocation algorithm. In capitalism it is easy and transparent: price, with the side effect of aligning society interests with those of the selfish individual. Of course the strange and heavily regulated US health-care system is obviously far far away from a free market. In socialism it's much more random: black markets, lists, lotteries, friends and network of connections. The side effect…

Theory: > In socialism it's much more random: black markets, lists, lotteries, friends and network of connections. The side effect is that the most productive individuals are discouraged and punished, with the whole society lagging in effect. Evidence: the vast majority of European countries who have socialized medicine and seem to be doing fine.

>>In socialism it's much more random: black markets, lists, lotteries

>Evidence: the vast majority of European countries who have socialized medicine and seem to be doing fine.

That evidence of socialism working well, only works as long as there are enough resources to cover the needs of most people, basically some of the wealthier European countries.

But when those resources become scarce due to poor economic conditions and/or mismanagement, then you'll see the endless queues, black margets and nepotism running the system.

Evidence: former European communist countries who experienced both systems and where in some, nepotism to bypass lists still work to this day.

Re: Children with cancer scammed out of millions fundraised for their treatment

#183

Post by wanderingmind »

cluckindan wrote: post #158
gampleman wrote: post #151

Really makes me think that the justice system should have a wide margin for discretionary sentencing. I get that in some sense fraud is fraud, but there is one thing preying on people's greed, and another preying on compassion, charity and vulnerable children in desperate need. Scams based on greed (or other vices) are in some sense limited crimes, since their success punishes what is low, but scams based on what is…

Then again, maybe we should keep ethics and morals away from law and sentencing, and concentrate on harm and intent. Laws can be based on ethics, but moral judgments really should not be involved in their application. Unless you want to live in a theocracy, of course.

The jury pronounces the sentence. What do you think sways the jurors - legalese complexity or straight up morality?

Re: Children with cancer scammed out of millions fundraised for their treatment

#184

Post by shawabawa3 »

huijzer wrote: post #168
tchalla wrote: post #41

The root cause of the problem is that parents and children need to raise funds for cancer treatment in the first place.

We have over the years raised billions (maybe trillions) for cancer treatments and we seem to have made negligible progress in actually curing cancer. Will it ever succeed? So maybe there is a root cause for your root cause?

Progress in cancer treatment has been incredible

Just one example, prostate cancer today has a 90+% 10 year survival rate, in 1970 that was 25%

Re: Children with cancer scammed out of millions fundraised for their treatment

#185

Post by b3ing »

LadyCailin wrote: post #99
zaphirplane wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does clicking on the ad cost the spammer a lot of money

Yes, which is one of two reasons why I use a blocker called adnauseum. It an adv locker that “clicks” on every single ad it sees, as well as hides it from my view. This makes my ad profile useless, and also costs them money.

Won’t Google ban your account if they notice this

Re: Children with cancer scammed out of millions fundraised for their treatment

#186

Post by felixyz »

jjcob wrote: post #57
throwaw12 wrote: post #34

I have reported these ads to YouTube multiple times, because I tracked down their scam websites, but YouTube didn't delete them anyway. Common pattern they had was: - similar or same domains - same messaging on their website YouTube could have taken action, but it choose not to

I'm still waiting for the tech world to wake up and realise that the online ad machinery and user tracking software that the brightest minds of our generation have been working on are just a way to efficiently connect scammers with their unsuspecting victims.

The tech world knows this. They are raking in money off of these scams. People with a rudimentary moral compass leave, those without stay, which makes it even less likely that industry will self-sanitize. The rest of society, out of survival instinct if nothing else, will have to force it to stop anti-social and fraudulent practices. Same as many other industries.

Re: Children with cancer scammed out of millions fundraised for their treatment

#187

Post by cheschire »

cluckindan wrote: post #158
gampleman wrote: post #151

Really makes me think that the justice system should have a wide margin for discretionary sentencing. I get that in some sense fraud is fraud, but there is one thing preying on people's greed, and another preying on compassion, charity and vulnerable children in desperate need. Scams based on greed (or other vices) are in some sense limited crimes, since their success punishes what is low, but scams based on what is…

Then again, maybe we should keep ethics and morals away from law and sentencing, and concentrate on harm and intent. Laws can be based on ethics, but moral judgments really should not be involved in their application. Unless you want to live in a theocracy, of course.

What is the definition of right and wrong if NOT a moral one?

Re: Children with cancer scammed out of millions fundraised for their treatment

#188

Post by aaronharnly »

huijzer wrote: post #168
tchalla wrote: post #41

The root cause of the problem is that parents and children need to raise funds for cancer treatment in the first place.

We have over the years raised billions (maybe trillions) for cancer treatments and we seem to have made negligible progress in actually curing cancer. Will it ever succeed? So maybe there is a root cause for your root cause?

According to this US government site, 5-year survival rates across all cancer sites have improved from 50% to 75% between 1974 and 2017. (For men it started at more like 40%).

That’s not utterly transformative but I wouldn’t call it negligible either.

https://progressreport.cancer.gov/after/survival

Re: Children with cancer scammed out of millions fundraised for their treatment

#189

Post by 867-5309 »

xeonmc wrote: post #171
eleveriven wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that families have to crowdfund lifesaving care creates the vulnerability but it doesn't force anyone to build an industrialized scam on top of it

Local man embezzles $20,000 meant to keep 200 orphans from being crushed in the orphan-crushing machine.

there is no trolley

Re: Children with cancer scammed out of millions fundraised for their treatment

#190

Post by somewhereoutth »

impossiblefork wrote: post #89
h33t-l4x0r wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Market economy. Capitalism is a name for the bad thing-- "the accumulation of capital by some to the exclusion of others". Those who argue for a market economy usually claim that with their rule, it won't be accumulation of capital by some to the exclusion of others, with them assuring us that there will be free markets and competition. Both actual capitalism, i.e. the bad thing, and this which can plausible be argue…

"the accumulation of capital by some to the exclusion of others"

This allows decentralised decision making for large grained resource allocation - for example should we build a factory for shoes, or for toothbrushes? - and is a good thing, as central planning has been demonstrated to not work if applied to the whole economy. (the converse, no central planning to any of the economy, has also been demonstrated to not work!)

However that accumulation can be (and nowadays usually is) orchestrated by a corporate entity, which in an ideal world would be almost entirely beneficially owned by retirees on an equitable basis.

What has gone wrong, is that the benefits of productivity enhancements (since 1970?) have flowed to capital more so than to workers - which not least prevents them from forming capital themselves (savings/pensions), hence rising wealth inequality.

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