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Nokia N900 Necromancy

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Re: Nokia N900 Necromancy

#181

Post by jack_tripper »

uecker wrote: post #178
jack_tripper wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>means that such a device could exist That was never the problem. The problem was how could Nokia stay competitive to Apple and Google when their focus was selling Linux devices aimed power users.

I owned the N9. This was a phone which was perfectly good also for average users, and it seems it sold very well in the few markets where it was actually sold (sadly no major markets). But when it came to the market, it was already decided that Nokia will kill their own OS development in favor of Windows Phone, which then flopped spectacularly. A decision which many people called out for being stupid before the conse…

>This was a phone which was perfectly good also for average users

Not good enough to save it from the iPhone onslaught.

People on HN make this mistake to assume that they represent the "average user", the same mistake Steve Wozniak made. No, the average user wasn't interested in all the features of the N9. They much preferred the simpler iPhone and the proof is in the pudding.

>and it seems it sold very well in the few markets where it was actually sold

How do you know it sold well when Nokia never release official sales numbers for the N9?

Estimates put the N9 at less than 1 million sales in the 23 markets it was sold in. A drop in the ocean compared to total iPhone sales of the same timeframe in same 23 regions which estimate at 50 million total. Face it, the N9 was a sales flop no matter how you try to spin this, and launching in more markets would not have moved the needle significantly to make a dent in the iPhone.

>(sadly no major markets)

It launched in 23 markets mate, mostly EMEA and Asia. Not NA because even Nokia leadership realized the N9 won't stand a chance to compete with the iPhone and Blackberry on their home turf.

>A decision which many people called out for being stupid before the consequences had fully unfolded.

Nokia was already dead man walking even before that. Even their own employees said so when they got to play with the first iPhone in their HQ. The N9 was the band playing on the decks on the Titanic.

Blaming Nokia's inevitable failure on Windows Phone is historical revisionism. They would have failed either way since they lacked the software ecosystem beyond the phone that Apple and Google offered their users.

Fanboys praising the N9 as something that would have magically saved Nokia even they have done X or Y or Z with various Linux spins, are huffing some top end copium.

Re: Nokia N900 Necromancy

#183

Post by mikestorrent »

eru wrote: post #76
mikestorrent wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So true! There will come a point at which there'll be two internets: the walled garden that only lets you in with Secure Attestation, Web Credentials for your verified age-of-maturity, etc. on a non-rooted device... and then the cyberpunk web where people running their own unofficial gear will be. I wonder if one could do Anti-Secure-Attestation, like, only allow connections from rooted devices? Back to proving root…

> I wonder if one could do Anti-Secure-Attestation, like, only allow connections from rooted devices? Just ask the person to say a naughty word, I guess?

If nobody actually sees an AI saying a bad word, is it saying it?

Re: Nokia N900 Necromancy

#184

Post by Arch-TK »

pessimizer wrote: post #153
Arch-TK wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wasn't really abandoned so much as killed by PayPal. The project used PayPal to gather downpayments, PayPal decided to lock the funds for months (almost a year or maybe longer IIRC) because they saw money coming in but no confirmation of goods coming out. And, you know, when it comes to big companies, no explanation is sufficient, you are guilty of something because some heuristic said so, so the funds were locked…

This seems like weird revisionist history or I missed something. I never got a dime back that I spent on the Neo900, which I assumed they spent on their personal lifestyles and travel while trying and failing to design and manufacture a board. If there was actually a holdup of funds that killed the project, and eventually the funds were released, that's an even worse story. I didn't think there could be a worse story…

Paypal released the funds to the project, not to the people making the downpayments. Paypal never returns money immediately to anyone, they sit on it for months while they "investigate".

I don't know who you are or where you were but the paypal problems were pretty well announced and _I_ was there. The project was already facing delays because a key person who was needed to make the board layouts was held up with the also now dead DragonBox Pyra handheld.

I have no idea where you think the money went, how much you think there was, but it was a constant game of trying to drum up enough activity to gain attention of potential customers to bring in enough down-payments to pay the salaries of the small number of people working on the project while having enough money to buy parts. The money went into salaries, parts, nobody bought hookers or blow with it, and certainly nobody got anything but stress out of that project in the end. I believe Joerg Reisenweber paid a lawyer out of pocket to try to get PayPal to release the funds.

Re: Nokia N900 Necromancy

#185

Post by uecker »

jack_tripper wrote: post #181
uecker wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I owned the N9. This was a phone which was perfectly good also for average users, and it seems it sold very well in the few markets where it was actually sold (sadly no major markets). But when it came to the market, it was already decided that Nokia will kill their own OS development in favor of Windows Phone, which then flopped spectacularly. A decision which many people called out for being stupid before the conse…

>This was a phone which was perfectly good also for average users Not good enough to save it from the iPhone onslaught. People on HN make this mistake to assume that they represent the "average user", the same mistake Steve Wozniak made. No, the average user wasn't interested in all the features of the N9. They much preferred the simpler iPhone and the proof is in the pudding. >and it seems it sold very well in the f…

A million sales (I heard 1-2 million) for N9 are very good, considering that smartphone sales were in the millions at that time and that it was not sold in the US, Germany, UK, France, Italy, Spain etc. and had no marketing. Wikipedia says the original iPhone sales were 6 million in the first year which is a better comparison than the 93 million of total sales for 5 years for several iPhone generations. I think the "dead man" walking story is an interpretation which is not rooted in any hard fact. It is based on the idea that nothing can beat the iPhone, which is demonstrably wrong because Android did. And compared to Android (also a Linux phone), the N9 was definitely much better. But I also point out that far from everybody considered the iPhone impressive. In Europe initial sales for the iPhone were also not good.

In contrast the explanation I have for Nokia's failure gives a logical explanation: They panicked, prematurely declared thir existing phones obsolete, cancelled there next-gen development such as N9, and instead offered a poorer product (Windows Phone) at a later time. It is difficult to see how this can lead to anything else than failure.

Whether N9 and co. would be successful enough to save them in the long-run is pure speculation, but I see no fundamental why it could not, and it was ready at a time where Nokia was still big enough to get some app developers on board.

Re: Nokia N900 Necromancy

#186

Post by lelanthran »

dtj1123 wrote: post #94

Sincere question: Can someone explain how you develop the skills and knowledge required to pull this off? I'm no genius, but I'm reasonably sure I'm not a slouch either. I've got a masters in theoretical physics, I've worked with and written software for four years, I take an interest in anything techy I come across. I've picked up the basics of population genomics and molecular genetics without assistance. I still f…

Like everything else,work on the observability first.

Can you grab the current boot partition? Once you have it can you decode it? Do you have a reference boot partition? Can you extract the bootloader from the boot partition? Can you read those binary files? Maybe turn them into readable assembly?

Can you clip a multimeter onto a PC trace? Can you do the same with a scope? Can you decipher what the 'scope capture means? Maybe use a bus pirate instead?

It's all about observability.

Re: Nokia N900 Necromancy

#187

Post by gspr »

mrmlz wrote: post #114
gspr wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd actually prefer one running a normal Linux. It's a travesty that certain things in daily life require Android or iOS, and that's a fight I'll keep fighting, but the idea of a tiny Linux laptop in my pocket is just so tempting.

Sure i can join you on the barricade, but i still want to function in a society :(

Sure. And for that I plan to keep a sterile second phone with the stuff that requires that.

Re: Nokia N900 Necromancy

#189

Post by larodi »

chriswarbo wrote: post #97
larodi wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is amazing Nokia missed on the mobile revolution as n900 predated iPhone if I remember correctly. But Nokia did one massive mistake and it was to bet on Linux for this device. Even when they already had lot of Symbian experience, which also was week though when it came to user apps. The modified BSD on the first iPhones was simply blazingly fast.

A bigger mistake was to not give the N770, N800, etc. phone capabilities. I was buying a new phone around that time, and thought those devices looked cool; but I couldn't even consider them, because they couldn't do basic calls or SMS. They fixed that with the N900, but had lost their head-start.

perhaps because phone capabilities require more chips, and SDR that would've made the N800/N900 too pricey. but, honestly, this thing was slow as shit, I loved the design so much, and hated this half-baked Debian equally.

The fact you could run apt on it did not help that much for the regular user.

Re: Nokia N900 Necromancy

#190

Post by larodi »

carlosjobim wrote: post #132
larodi wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is amazing Nokia missed on the mobile revolution as n900 predated iPhone if I remember correctly. But Nokia did one massive mistake and it was to bet on Linux for this device. Even when they already had lot of Symbian experience, which also was week though when it came to user apps. The modified BSD on the first iPhones was simply blazingly fast.

Linux was not a mistake on these devices. And I say that as the foremost hater of open source and Linux you can find around here. In fact, the N9 Linux phone was a huge success among everyday people in several countries. Farmers, teenagers, everybody got an N9. You couldn't go to any small party without at least two people having the N9 phone. Everybody loved them. It was in no way a hacker device for nerds. What kil…

Microsoft did take over Nokia much later than the N900. In fact, Nokia lost value after iPhone showed, and it is only when MS could take over it. And the Android is a side effect of the fact that the .NET was not ready to run existing phones, and Microsoft decided to release the WindowsPhone as non-Nokia branded one.

My BSD statement stays, though, MS did some very good work with the WinPhones, and in fact they were super snappy and useful, very close to what iPhones were at the time. And let's not forget, that the flat looks of (not sure which macos) was directly influenced by these winphones...

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