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Kohler Can Access Pictures from "End-to-End Encrypted" Toilet Camera

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Re: Kohler Can Access Pictures from "End-to-End Encrypted" Toilet Camera

#181

Post by g-b-r »

calebio wrote: post #176
g-b-r wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 1994 paper (freely available at https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc1341727/m2/... ) is actually about proper E2EE. I addressed the other two at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46132220 . You did show that the term was already used, but in the current meaning

> The 1994 paper (freely available at https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc1341727/m2/ ...) is actually about proper E2EE. That paper is about PKI-based session setup for End-End which is the ancestor of SSL/TLS. It even mentions a CAE which is effectively a CA and it does a synchronous handshake to establish a symmetric key. It's very clearly about transport layer security from end to end. It's not about…

To be clear, SSL/TLS and other transport protocols can absolutely be considered end-to-end encryption, if they're established between the two real interlocutors.

Otherwise, you have two instances of encryption with decryption in the middle; that can't logically be called end-to-end encryption, I never heard it called so, and hopefully it never was.

Re: Kohler Can Access Pictures from "End-to-End Encrypted" Toilet Camera

#182

Post by Dilettante_ »

mindslight wrote: post #103
tbrownaw wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would only work after they're done training the ai models.

So like after the alpha and beta phases, when they have an actual product worthy of selling?

If there's anything circa five dozen wannabe-techbro blogposts have taught me, it's that if you wait for a product that's worthy of shipping, you're never gonna ship.

Re: Kohler Can Access Pictures from "End-to-End Encrypted" Toilet Camera

#184

Post by butvacuum »

pyuser583 wrote: post #159
geoduck14 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly what E2EE means. I used to work at a bank, and our data was E2EE, and we had to certify that it was E2EE - from the person paying, through the networks, through the DNS and Load balancers, until it got to the servers. Only at the servers could it be unencrypted and a (authoried) human could look at it. Of course, only authorized users could see the data, but that was a different compliance line item.

It sounds like one term is being used for two very different things.

Yes, because people don't know the difference between "in transit" and e2ee.

Re: Kohler Can Access Pictures from "End-to-End Encrypted" Toilet Camera

#185

Post by butvacuum »

kstrauser wrote: post #77
lukeschlather wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone reading that is misunderstanding what E2EE means. As the article says, that's client-side encryption. Kohler isn't lying, people are confusing two different security features.

That is an uncommon interpretation that’s far different than the usual meaning.

They're also claiming regulatory requirements as features. At least consumers might be able to sue in addition to several governments when it turns out to be a bunch of crap.

Re: Kohler Can Access Pictures from "End-to-End Encrypted" Toilet Camera

#186

Post by d1sxeyes »

lmm wrote: post #138
Terr_ wrote: post #4

So basically their marketing-department is abusing a security term in order to sound good, as opposed to a software flaw. They're claiming "end to end" encryption, which usually implies the service is unable to spy on individual users that are communicating to one-another over an individualized channel. However in this case there are no other users, and their server is one of the "ends" doing the communicating, which…

> They're claiming "end to end" encryption, which usually implies the service is unable to spy on individual users that are communicating to one-another over an individualized channel. It doesn't "imply", it outright states that. Their server isn't the end, it's the middle. They're not "breaking the spirit" or something, what they are doing is called lying .

What is the other “end”?

Re: Kohler Can Access Pictures from "End-to-End Encrypted" Toilet Camera

#187

Post by butvacuum »

poisonborz wrote: post #168

The problem is genuinely the misleading nature of the phrase "end to end" and the lack of a better alternative. HTTPS is "end to end". There should be some new word for "decryptable only by the user".

It's in the name. TLS- Transport Layer Security.

Re: Kohler Can Access Pictures from "End-to-End Encrypted" Toilet Camera

#188

Post by butvacuum »

Dilettante_ wrote: post #183
fransje26 wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like something they pulled out of their ass..

But their algorithms are number 1 on the market!

#2. There's always somebody better. Sorry, just taking the piss there.

Re: Kohler Can Access Pictures from "End-to-End Encrypted" Toilet Camera

#189

Post by spwa4 »

WatchDog wrote: post #54
bmandale wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an incredibly common misuse of the term e2ee. I think at this point we need a new word because you have a coin flip's chance of actually getting what you think when a company describes their product this way.

Any new term you come up with, will end up being misused by marketers.

End-to-end encryption doesn't mean anything where it is semi-validly used. It's used on phones, where you as a user (or company) don't control what code executes. For example, WhatsApp was end-to-end encrypted. Well, it doesn't actually provide security because with either physical access to the phone or if you have if you can use the app store to "upgrade" the app, you can upload code to the phone. You can upload an apk that replaces the WhatsApp app. It even still uploads the messages to a central server so you can get those messages from Meta, then get the key from the phone some time later or earlier and use the key to decrypt it when the message is already erased from the phone.

(aside from the fact that people don't seem to know/remember WhatsApp backs up to google drive)

Code that then gets access to the end-to-end encryption keys ... so you're not safe from state actors, you're not safe from police, you're not safe from the authors of the code and you're not safe from anyone who has physical access to your phone.

Re: Kohler Can Access Pictures from "End-to-End Encrypted" Toilet Camera

#190

Post by therealpygon »

butvacuum wrote: post #180
swiftcoder wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not think this matches anyones' mental model of what "end-to-end encrypted" for a conversation between me and what is ostensibly my own computer should look like. If you promise end-to-end encryption, and later it turns out your employees have been reading my chat transcripts...

I'm not sure how you can call chatgpt "ostensibly my own computer" when it's primarily a website. And honestly, E2EE's strict definition (messages between user 1 and user 2 cannot be decrypted by message platform)... Is unambiguously possible for chatGPT. It's just utterly pointless when user2 happens to also be the message platform. If you message support for $chat_platform (if there is such a thing) do you expect t…

> it's primarily a website … unambiguously possible[sic] for chatGPT … happens to also be the message platform

I assume you mean impossible, and in either case that’s not quite accurate. The “end” is a specific AI model you wished to communicate with, not the platform. You’re suggesting they are one and the same, but they are not and Google proves that with their own secure LLM offering.

But I’m 100% with you on it being a disingenuous use.

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