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Orion 1.0

blog.kagi.com

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Re: Orion 1.0

#181

Post by cipehr »

inopinatus wrote: post #177
cipehr wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? Since when was asking questions to clarify someones position considered "pushing back?" Can you help me understand what about the questions make you uncomfortable? I am completely unaffiliated with Kagi. I find it concerning that we've come to a world were we can't ask questions without it being taken as something hostile to the person/people/idea being questioned. Is that not what science is?

If you don’t think “you can just audit the binary with tools” is pushing back, then I don’t know what is, and especially so when you’ve framed the invitation with “I'd rather listen”. I’m reminded of the number of times I’ve had vendors sit across the table from me and argue that our fixed requirements for are just a preference or a nice-to-have. This generally doesn’t bode well for their prospects.

Fair enough. I personally did not read push back in the questions/statements asked/made.

> Trust with regards to...?

I took this to be a good faith ask for clarification

> Orion doesn't have any telemetry... You can audit the application's behavior with standard tools to verify that it isn't "phoning home", etc...

I took this as a statement if what I could do, not specifically what I should do instead of getting it open sourced.

Maybe I read it with more good faith intention and curiosity than I should have. I see your point on how that could be perceived as push back, but I landed somewhere different from where you might have.

Re: Orion 1.0

#182

Post by burnte »

ofrzeta wrote: post #59

Money quote: "In a world dominated by Chromium, choosing a rendering engine is an act of resistance"

Yeah, except it's pure bullshit. I'm actually a tiny bit irritated they worded it like this because it's insultingly misleading.

"From day one, we made the deliberate choice to build Orion on WebKit, the open‑source engine at the heart of Safari and the broader Apple ecosystem."

Chromium's Blink is based on Webkit and was for YEARS. While Blink and Webkit had some major differences now, it's not Webkit that's the better core now.

They picked Webkit because it's fast and easy, what ships on both MacOS and iOS. They couldn't put an alternative engine in the iOS and distribute it outside of Europe, so they stuck with webkit. For an Apple-only application, it's a smart choice for fast development, but it's NOT an act of resistance AT ALL. It's completely caving to Apple.

This is not a bold new choice in the browser space, it's just another privacy focused Webkit browser. That's great, but pretending this is sticking it to the man is delusional.

Re: Orion 1.0

#183

Post by aranelsurion »

my initial, 15min impression is.. wow so much to like here! It feels very snappy, really nice UI, supports "real" version of uBlock Origin, has built-in Vertical Tabs with nesting and Tab Groups, and also the iOS-like grid of tabs if you prefer.

What I don't like: Seems like no way to disable two-finger back/forward gesture? I hate that one and managed to disable a similar feature in Chrome. Also either it doesn't have any kind of Developer Tools, or I couldn't find it yet in my 15min speedrun. (edit: found it)

I'm hopeful.

Re: Orion 1.0

#184

Post by aucisson_masque »

Orion for Linux and windows is actually a huge thing. I'm sick of having to choose between chromium clone and gecko clone, I find WebKit to be very efficient and Orion on my Mac was very good.

The only reason I didn't use it is because safari, I already paid for all the extension i need and I found safari to be better on iphone. But compared to Firefox or chrome, this is so much better.

Re: Orion 1.0

#185

Post by aranelsurion »

TingPing wrote: post #166
dvno42 wrote: post #118

This looks neat but the biggest question I have and care about... UBO? Not the limited manifest v3 version or whatever it's referred to as, but the full bore block lists like in FF. Excited to see where this goes!!

It doesn’t support the APIs ublock requires.

Huh? But I see it says "uBlock Origin" when I install it and the UI looks like what I remember from the full version.

It says "Firefox" when I check the extensions page, so maybe that's where it manages to bring the full version from.

Re: Orion 1.0

#186

Post by 0_gravitas »

inesranzo wrote: post #171
z64 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trust with regards to...? Orion doesn't have any telemetry, doesn't force any updates on you, doesn't require any account. You can audit the application's behavior with standard tools to verify that it isn't "phoning home", etc., it doesn't need to be open source to do that, nor would making it open source obviate auditig the final executable anyways. What do you perceive as the risk to "trusting" Orion in this case?…

I'm assuming the people who are asking for Orion to be open source are not paying for it. I think a blog post on Orion's transparency is enough. The fact that there is Orion+ is enough to warrant no need to have tracking or 'enshittification'. If you like Kagi and Orion, supporting development by paying for it makes sense. Open sourcing everything of Orion means that Orion+ will be open source which defeats the point…

> I'm assuming the people who are asking for Orion to be open source are not paying for it.

I think this is an odd/slightly-disingenuous statement.

I mean, I'm on linux, so I'm not, I'm happily paying for kagi though, and would pay for Orion+ if it was available to me :)

I would also very much like it if Orion was open source, it would make me feel a lot better committing to and recommending a browser if I had actual assurances it's behaving appropriately, beyond a company saying "trust me", no matter how nice/cool they seem at the time.

Honestly, I kinda wish Orion+ was the only option, I think having a free option (and the incentives that can create) is kind of antithetical to Kagi's whole raison detre.

Re: Orion 1.0

#187

Post by WesleyJohnson »

jorl17 wrote: post #125
esafak wrote: post #37

What's the bug situation? It sucked last I checked, over a year ago. Is there a way to get a useful visualization like a burndown chart out of their bug tracker? The people who have created it seem unaware that one important task of such a tracker is to reveal the big picture and help answer questions like "Is the project getting better or worse?" They should study the Github Insights tab. https://orionfeedback.org/

I've tried Orion a couple of times. I even used it as my default browser for ~3 months about two years ago. Most recently, I tried to use it again about 2 months ago, but it still had loads of bugs and, most of all, was painfully slow. The truth is, Orion being based off of WebKit comes with the obvious limitation that....it's based off of WebKit! So much slower than chrome or firefox, and plagued with decisions that…

I know it's just a google away, but I use Arc and I'm not in the loop on them poo-pooing on their users. Can you elaborate?

Re: Orion 1.0

#188

Post by catgirlinspace »

yannickburky wrote: post #129
rdg1991 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep! I gladly pay money for Kagi since it's great, but I'm not going to pay for a browser that's broken in fundamental ways. I'd be willing to pay for it if they start actually fixing long standing bugs like this.

Orion Browser is free

You can pay for Orion+. https://kagi.com/onboarding?p=orion_plan

Re: Orion 1.0

#189

Post by themagicteeth »

WesleyJohnson wrote: post #187
jorl17 wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've tried Orion a couple of times. I even used it as my default browser for ~3 months about two years ago. Most recently, I tried to use it again about 2 months ago, but it still had loads of bugs and, most of all, was painfully slow. The truth is, Orion being based off of WebKit comes with the obvious limitation that....it's based off of WebKit! So much slower than chrome or firefox, and plagued with decisions that…

I know it's just a google away, but I use Arc and I'm not in the loop on them poo-pooing on their users. Can you elaborate?

They shut down development on Arc and then started a new browser focused on AI features… then sold to Atlassian
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