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Visible from space, Sudan's bloodied sands expose a massacre of thousands

telegraph.co.uk

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Re: Visible from space, Sudan's bloodied sands expose a massacre of thousands

#181
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read the Koran and Hadiths, there are numerous statements about the true Muslims duty being to spread Islam - at the point of the sword being a well supported one, scripture wise. Abu Bakr [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Bakr ] and even Mohammed himself [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_expeditions_of_Muhamma... ]. It has never been a particularly ‘turn the other cheek’ religion.

Isn't that true of Christianity as well? If it is the true Muslim's duty to spread Islam by the sword, then why did it take centuries for populations to convert to Islam in places like Egypt which were conquered by leaders who knew Mohammed personally? Why did places which were never conquered by Muslim caliphates like Indonesia have significant Muslim populations today?

> Isn't that true of Christianity as well?

No, definitely not with the same authority. If you take the Bible as the equivalent of the Quran, and the church fathers as the equivalent of the hadiths, neither has any endorsement of conversion through threats of violence. Jesus was never a political or military leader, nor were the first few generations of Christian leaders.

I cannot give as clear an answer with regard to islam, because I do not know enough in depth, but there are a variety of interpretations. There was persecution of religious minorities in the Muslim empires, but mass slaughter of those who refused to convert would have inspired rebellion. The conversion did happen in places like Egypt and Syria and Persia and there was coercion.

As for Indonesia, the GP did not claim Islam spread only by the sword.

Re: Visible from space, Sudan's bloodied sands expose a massacre of thousands

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Got evidence that they supplied weapons? GP’s Wikipedia article does not seem to say that they did (apart from an unclear reference to US military aid, which I don’t think refers to US military aid to Sudan specifically).

Where is the UAE getting weapons from? The UAE isn’t an arms manufacturing juggernaut. I think it’s possibly fair to say the U.S. doesn’t want this war to continue and probably doesn’t even want the UAE to supply weapons to it, but that was likely true of Israel’s bombing of Gaza as well and no one batted an eyelid when holding the U.S. responsible there.

China?

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2025/05/sudan-advance...

I haven't found any articles implicating the US, which has export sanctions on Sudan. The only thing I could find was something about small arms from the UK.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2025/oct/28/u...

This report https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/07/sudan-constan... lists

> Weapons from China, Russia, Serbia, Türkiye, United Arab Emirates and Yemen identified

Although that seems to be mixing it up a bit, since Turkey and Russia are supporting the SAF.

Also some France-made weapons: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/sudan-civil-war-amnesty-interna...

Re: Visible from space, Sudan's bloodied sands expose a massacre of thousands

#183
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn’t know British weapons made it to the RSF. Wow. Have American weapons been used in the war?

It would be very strange if American weapons weren't used in a conflict this big, which is a very different question from "did the US government sell weapons into this war".

I've looked for articles and don't see anything about US weapons. It would be very strange, indeed, but supposition isn't proof and I can't find anything suggesting the US is involved in anyway. Colour me surprised, tbh.

Re: Visible from space, Sudan's bloodied sands expose a massacre of thousands

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that “western intervention” is the only thing that stops these from occurring is so ignorant and rooted in racism I don’t know where to begin.

[flagged]

Wow, you’re off the deep end mate.

Re: Visible from space, Sudan's bloodied sands expose a massacre of thousands

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Visible from space" used to mean "by astronauts". If high-resolution sensors are allowed, then the term applies to things like a tree and a car, and doesn't signify much. Well, maybe it signifies that nobody wants to go and take photos in person.

> Well, maybe it signifies that nobody wants to go and take photos in person. I'd happily do it if someone pays for my ticket

Ticket to Sudan, or ticket to space?

Re: Visible from space, Sudan's bloodied sands expose a massacre of thousands

#186
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read the Koran and Hadiths, there are numerous statements about the true Muslims duty being to spread Islam - at the point of the sword being a well supported one, scripture wise. Abu Bakr [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Bakr ] and even Mohammed himself [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_expeditions_of_Muhamma... ]. It has never been a particularly ‘turn the other cheek’ religion.

Isn't that true of Christianity as well? If it is the true Muslim's duty to spread Islam by the sword, then why did it take centuries for populations to convert to Islam in places like Egypt which were conquered by leaders who knew Mohammed personally? Why did places which were never conquered by Muslim caliphates like Indonesia have significant Muslim populations today?

Some comparative theology time I guess?

Notably, I never said ‘by the sword’ was the only way. There is definitely a history of a number of religions doing it though!

First, I am under no illusions that what a religions book (or common formal teachings) says necessarily matches what its stated followers actually do.

Judaism essentially forbids ‘recruiting’, and it is quite difficult to convert. Mainly because Judaism is essentially ‘this group of people have a special deal with god/are god’s special people’.

Christianity has very mixed message (especially depending on which version of the Bible!) with some explicit calls to convert others - but without any calls to violence associated with them I can see [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2028%3A...]. John the Baptist being a prime ‘doer’. Also, there are explicit calls to ‘turn the other cheek/not retaliate’, such as [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205%3A3...].

Which makes the crusades particularly crazy/insane of course. Jesus was clearly non-violent and didn’t want people going out killing each other over anything he was saying.

At the time, the Church (now Catholic Church) heavily controlled ‘the word’, by insisting everything be done in Latin - which they were then the gatekeepers for. They also meddled (or flat out controlled!) national politics, and this gave them immense power to control the narrative of ‘what god demands’ in ways that now clearly contradict what we can read ourselves.

Islamic teachings can be interpreted in many different ways, and there are at least 2 major schools of thought (Sunni/Shia), and two major regional differences. What is taught//practiced in most of the middle, and what is taught/practiced in Indonesia being clear differentiators, for example.

But the Koran and its Hadiths are generally relatively accessible, if one looks, and it’s not hard to find analysis of different elements of it online. Unlike the Bible, there are explicit calls for the devout to study it directly. Also, unlike the Christian Bible, it also tends to be less - chaotic and internally conflicting. Comparing Matthew and Leviticus would give anyone whiplash, for example.

For instance - Quran 9:5 [https://islam.stackexchange.com/questions/71323/what-is-the-...].

As to if it means believers must go to war with specific ‘irritating’ local tribes, or means all unbelievers, depends on who you ask. But most agree it means unbelievers in general. Many of the ‘problem’ groups in recent history with the west have explicitly used it to justify their attacks (among many others).

There are specific carve outs/exceptions for Jews and Christians (though also corresponding ‘give them no quarter unless they convert/behave as Muslims’ sections!), and in general the expectation is that for them to be protected they need to respect Islamic law and behave accordingly. Which isn’t really possible, for the most part, without significant changes in behavior/belief.

So depending on how ‘close to the book’ someone is being, and if sections are being ignored, depends on how much someone is going to believe/follow. Notably, Indonesia is widely seen is ‘Islam light’, but they do follow quite a bit of it (like how marriages work, expectations for women), that the west would struggle with. Middle eastern countries, communities in Pakistan, India, etc. tend to be the hardest core.

And once you understand the nature of the teaching, it is hard to not see the western way of life as being the personification of Iblis (the great satan - the tester of faith). After all, who wouldn’t want to chill out and drink beer, watch TV, and ignore the (often difficult) teachings of God? join us…, it’s fun! And don’t worry, there is no actual god anyway.

And like the old Christian Church during the crusades, government and madrases (religious schools) tend to be intermixed, which of course causes ‘problems’ similar to the crusades.

Thankfully not to the full extent, right now anyway.

Re: Visible from space, Sudan's bloodied sands expose a massacre of thousands

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where is the UAE getting weapons from? The UAE isn’t an arms manufacturing juggernaut. I think it’s possibly fair to say the U.S. doesn’t want this war to continue and probably doesn’t even want the UAE to supply weapons to it, but that was likely true of Israel’s bombing of Gaza as well and no one batted an eyelid when holding the U.S. responsible there.

China? https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2025/05/sudan-advance... I haven't found any articles implicating the US, which has export sanctions on Sudan. The only thing I could find was something about small arms from the UK. https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2025/oct/28/u... This report https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/07/sudan-constan... lists > Weapons from China, Russia, Serbia, Türkiye…

> China?

More like UK: UK military equipment used by militia accused of genocide found in Sudan, UN told

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2025/oct/28/u...

Re: Visible from space, Sudan's bloodied sands expose a massacre of thousands

#188
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The number of violent conflicts initiated by various islamist groups is insane [1]. There is something wrong here that goes beyond funding. It's possible to acknowledge that without being islamophobic. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflict...

The heatmap may as well represent a map of recently decolonized areas with unresolved political issues, and just so happens that many of these places have significant Muslim populations.

[dead]

Re: Visible from space, Sudan's bloodied sands expose a massacre of thousands

#189

Western governments prefer to earn a day's income than sacrifice a whole African tribe since the last centuries up until now. So, no wonders Sudan felt in a hell hole where intertwined interests take place. Only the public outcry through mass media can stop a genocide which in this case does not sell. After a few years the balance of power will settle and may be a movie will be produced, like Hotel Rwanda.

[dead]

Re: Visible from space, Sudan's bloodied sands expose a massacre of thousands

#190

Sadly, yet another bloody chapter of the Abu Dhabi (al Nahyan) - Doha (al Thani) feud that has been going on since the 2011 coup attempt [0], which itself is part of a longer multi-generational blood feud going on between the royal families [4]. The Middle East, North Africa, Central Asia, and Balkans are all burning because of this saga [1]. The UAE backs the RSF [2] (formerly known as the Janjaweed of the Darfur Ge…

You think the Abu Dhabi Qatari rivalry began in 2011? 1700s more like it.

It ebbs and flows depending on whether it's an al Khalifa or an al Thani who controls Doha. Before the 1995 coup, it was the al Khalifa and al Ghufran clan that was in control, and they had both familial and economic relations in KSA and Abu Dhabi.

Khaleeji (like everyone else) are fine putting family history aside if it does not interfere with monetary incentives, and the crux of the issue has been clashing LNG claims between Qatar and Abu Dhabi. The al Thani clan has been pursuing a maximalist claim and works closely with Turkiye and Iran as their short term security guarantor as a result, but the al Khalifa and al Ghufran clan were fine with the Abu Dhabi claim because they have significant economic holdings in the UAE and KSA.

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