Meeting A Troll • Hacker News Board

Re: Meeting A Troll

#181

Post by fusiongyro » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 5:39 PM UTC

Tipzntrix wrote: post #178

fusiongyro wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes what's best for society isn't what's best for the individual. Society benefits from having sadists removed from the equation. It doesn't matter much, from a societal standpoint, whether they're rehabilitated or incarcerated, as long as the sadistic entity is removed from the equation. If there were no examples of sadists who could not be rehabilitated, your point would be obviously true. Unfortunately, ther…

As such, this is also one of the arguments for the death penalty. If that risk you speak of is too high to see any chance of rehabilitation, what good does incarceration do? Still, this child has no repeat history that we know of, and probably wasn't reprimanded for his behaviour before. It is likely that he could be a psychopath with everything he said, but it is also likely that the veil of anonymity made him less…

The point of not killing is that you can free the wrongly incarcerated when you discover a mistake. But I'm not arguing specifically for or against the death penalty here--my thoughts are so confused on that particular issue I could probably argue either way. Otherwise I agree with what you're saying here.

Re: Meeting A Troll

#182

Post by MartinCron » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 5:50 PM UTC

Quarrelsome wrote: post #150

ary wrote: post #53

It's difficult to read this and not think that a psychopath was let off the hook because he was young. Outing and labeling these kinds of people is important to curbing the amount of future damage they can do. There is bullying, there is harassment, and then there is what the OP experienced. No reasonable, rational individual who is just "acting out" in adolescence takes it to these levels. As much as I feel for the…

Ummmm... my brother was a terrorist when he was 17. He used to blow up stuff on the posh estate and severely vandalise properties striking legitimate fear into the hearts of those that owned them (people moved their kids away etc). I myself was charged for criminal damage, firearms and threatening behaviour when I was 15 years old. When you have difficulties in both school and personal life you end up doing crazy thi…

If you haven't yet, I would like to encourage you to share more of your story. You seem to have both a fascinating history and solid self-awareness.

Re: Meeting A Troll

#183

Post by bloaf » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 6:09 PM UTC

engtech wrote: post #159

InclinedPlane wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it would be detrimental to him to "grow up" then will it not be detrimental to society to put him out in a world where he could do harm to others? Especially given that he already has a history of doing exactly that? If the premise here is that this man-child is too immature to take on the responsibilities of adult society (such as the right to own firearms, the right to drive automobiles, the right to drink alcoh…

"then should he not be kept away from society and denied the ability to hurt others?" How long do you think he should be kept away from society? His actions don't justify a life sentence or the death penalty, so he's going to be part of society at some point. Is taking him out of society going to make him a better person? No. The best way to rehabilitate someone is for them to have something to lose. If this 17yo had…

I think it is highly unlikely that any of his actions would result in any significant jail time. Community service, a fine, and/or some sort of probation are all more likely.

I had a childhood friend who got in with a bad crowd in high school. At some point, when he was about 17, he was caught illegally entering a business at night. His parents refused to go pick him up from the police station, so he had to spend the night and most of the next day in a cell. I don't believe his ultimate punishment involved any jail time.

I respect his parent's decision. That sort of action teaches a troublesome kid that there are real consequences for breaking laws beyond just upset parents. While a criminal record might make it harder for him to get a job in the future, it certainly doesn't make it impossible. I also suspect it is better than letting a kid think that other people will protect him and he can get away with whatever he wants.

Re: Meeting A Troll

#184

Post by Arhag » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 6:12 PM UTC

ripperdoc wrote: post #113

unreal37 wrote: post #44

Interesting. I don't think I would have done the same, and even with time to think long and hard about it, I still would have gone after him with all my might. I don't think letting him off with just a warning is in any sense "justice" nor in the end was the smart choice. There's something psychotic about harassing someone you know for YEARS, anonymously, in such a vicious way as he did. It's just cruelty on a level…

Well, we don't know enough about this case to really judge it. But my key take away is NOT that this kid is a future murderer, but rather the opposite, that internet harassment is something very different than real harassment, something normal people can get into, somewhere where it's too easy to disconnect emotionally from the target and the suffering of the target. The kid may not have been able to visualize the su…

How do you reckon what's described in this article doesn't count as “real” harassment? Just because the harassment is done anonymously online doesn't mean it's any easier to deal with, perhaps even the opposite. Not to mention the dead flowers and the other things which happened outside the web.

In the end I believe the internet just provides an easier way of stalking people than through the traditional means, but the victims are affected just as badly, so I don't think you shouldn't take internet harassment any more lightly.

Re: Meeting A Troll

#185

Post by bloaf » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 6:14 PM UTC

gaius wrote: post #129

beseku wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I think back to the decisions I made as a 17 year old (and an 18, 19, 20 ... year old) I think it is perfectly valid to call a 17 year old a child. At that age I would guess a large proportion can barely cook for themselves, have never lived alone, probably never paid a bill or shopped at supermarkets.

There is a strong case in the modern world for upping the age of maturity to say, 25.

"...the tough thing about adulthood is that it starts before you even know it starts, when you're already a dozen decisions into it. But what you need to know, Todd, no Lifeguard is watching anymore. You're on your own. You're your own man, and the decisions you make now are yours and yours alone from here until the end. "

An arbitrary age of maturity has nothing to do with actual (as opposed to legal) adulthood or responsibility. The fact is that "kids" at the age of 17 and 18 are already making decisions that will affect them for the rest of their lives. Making the legal age later will certainly not help these people realize that the decisions they are making are important or that they need to take responsibility for themselves.

Re: Meeting A Troll

#186

Post by anamax » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 6:26 PM UTC

yelsgib wrote: post #57

For those of you who claim that the right thing in this situation would be to turn the child over to the authorities - what exactly do you think the authorities are going to do to make this situation better? The child obviously has some darkness that he needs to work through - to work through darkness he needs the support of a loving community. I find it very sad and disturbing that some commenters (who I assume are…

> For those of you who claim that the right thing in this situation would be to turn the child over to the authorities - what exactly do you think the authorities are going to do to make this situation better?

The authorities are going to stop the harrassment.

You seem to be under the illusion that harrassed people have some obligation to help their harrassers.

Feel free to help this wayward person but you're way out of line in complaining that the victim didn't do so.

Re: Meeting A Troll

#187

Post by philwelch » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 6:38 PM UTC

Tichy wrote: post #126

minitrollster wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's the thing: actions have consequences. Bad actions result in bad consequences. Such is the learning process of lots of species. Do you think training pets by reinforcing good behaviour and punishing bad behaviour is modern and supported by "state propaganda", whatever that means? I do believe that prison systems can be good at rehabilitation. Maybe not in the US, where you seem to be from, but it's working in m…

Do you think kids should be trained like pets? It seems a lot of people do, they also think they own their kids somehow. Sad... As I said in another comment: personally I hope my kid will end up doing what is right because he believes it the right thing to do, not because of fear of punishment. Not saying that punishment is never necessary (I am not sure). Obviously it works, because people (and animals) can learn fr…

> Do you think kids should be trained like pets?

Is there any empirical evidence that operant conditioning doesn't work on humans?

Re: Meeting A Troll

#188

Post by nathanb » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 8:18 PM UTC

tinco wrote: post #148

rooshdi wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are outliers, but love has contagious qualities in most instances.

What kind of persons downvote this comment? (please someone argument this I am really curious why this happened)

I didn't downvote, but an assertion coupled with waffle words and with no citation doesn't add much to the conversation. Phrasing it as "in my experience, love is contagious" would at least frame the comment more accurately (individual experience and opinion versus universal axiom).

Re: Meeting A Troll

#189

Post by Quarrelsome » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 8:36 PM UTC

MartinCron wrote: post #182

Quarrelsome wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ummmm... my brother was a terrorist when he was 17. He used to blow up stuff on the posh estate and severely vandalise properties striking legitimate fear into the hearts of those that owned them (people moved their kids away etc). I myself was charged for criminal damage, firearms and threatening behaviour when I was 15 years old. When you have difficulties in both school and personal life you end up doing crazy thi…

If you haven't yet, I would like to encourage you to share more of your story. You seem to have both a fascinating history and solid self-awareness.

It's really not that special. It possibly sounds much worse on paper than it actually was. I pointed a replica gun at someone and my brother repeatedly vandalized a neighborhood over the course of a few weeks. With hindsight its the same as this kid, his crime was "just" sending abusive mail. It's only when you look at this from the perspective of those that suffered because of the actions that it feels so terrible.

We were just spoiled middle-class kids, my brother a militent marxist and myself just angry at being shut down due to my age all of the time. Compound that with the social cruelty of other children in school and home problems (relatively minor #firstworldproblems) and you get what I think is a relatively standard outcome. It might be alien to those that didn't have any difficulties in their childhood but I'd suggest its fairly common for kids to go off the rails like this.

The really interesting stories are probably from those that live in care. I used to hang around with some really troubled kids that came from proper, really difficult backgrounds (i.e. not just #firstworldproblems). Less of those people surface into what I imagine we'd call "proper society" as a lot of them understandably never lose their victim complex, constantly feel persecuted and continue to lash out throughout their entire lives. However a lot of them do patch over their past problems and become excellent contributors to society.

From my perspective it's amazing the difference in mindset that can happen to people as they grow out of their teens and into their twenties. To me it was like a completely different world and one that I was really good at and suited me much better. This is why I bitch a little about the school system and how we treat our children I personally think there is a severe disconnect between the two "worlds". That's what I really wanted to address to the parent of my comment. I think that calling someone a sociopath because of something they did in their teens suggests a lack of understanding in troubled childhoods.

Re: Meeting A Troll

#190

Post by Millennium » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 8:46 PM UTC

If you've ever seen very young puppies playing, you know that it's not as cute as it sounds. There's yelping and pain, and often even blood as the puppies bite one another mercilessly. But as the days and weeks pass, that stops; by being bitten, the puppies learn that biting hurts. It takes a little while, and is perhaps not the most pleasant of methods, but it's what their minds can process.

Some people are the same way. It's a cruel thing to force a bully (or its net-cousin, the troll) to look in the mirror and see what they've really done; what they really are. It messes with a person's head in a way that those who haven't experienced it cannot understand. But many of them legitimately NEED that kind of cruelty; it's the language they speak, the stimulus they know how to sense.

It's still cruel, mind you; it shouldn't be shied away from, but it shouldn't be glorified or looked forward to either. Sometimes it's not even possible, especially in the age of the Internet. But when it can be done, I'd call it preferable to bringing in the authorities. It's less wasteful, on account of not throwing up lifelong obstacles for the troll to overcome, and when properly applied it hurts worse than the law would allow our authorities to inflict anyway. Justice and vengeance, all wrapped up in a nice, neat package.