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Public Montessori programs strengthen learning outcomes at lower costs: study

phys.org

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Re: Public Montessori programs strengthen learning outcomes at lower costs: study

#181

Post by sgarland »

sgarland wrote: post #103
zzleeper wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here. My three-year old loved maps and we always played with them (making map of her room, etc etc) We enrolled her at the local Montessori and she rushed to the map section but was told she is forbidden from using it until she takes the lesson on that or whatever is called. That lesson was 2-3 months away, and meanwhile all other kids were able to play with the maps. This, combined with other rigidities and a c…

I’m by far not an expert on it (my wife is, she teaches Montessori), but AFAIK what you observed was because it isn’t viewed as play, but as work - as in school work. All of the activities are called “works,” and they’re taken very seriously. Part of this is, I think, to teach responsibility; for example, if a student gets a work out, they’re expected to put it back exactly how they found it. Montessori classrooms ar…

Update: I asked my wife, she said that without other context, it sounded like the school may not be “following the child,” a core tenet of Montessori. She said that while they might steer a new student away from that initially, if they’re clearly interested, she’ll bump that lesson up early instead of when it was scheduled.

Re: Public Montessori programs strengthen learning outcomes at lower costs: study

#182

Post by em-bee »

spicyusername wrote: post #172
em-bee wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i believe some countries have a different experience. in a report about participating on online classes from home during covid in germany it was observed that kids with worse conditions at home were disadvantaged the most, which leads to the reverse conclusion that for these kids going to school did matter.

I think that anecdote leads to the same conclusion, no? Children with worse parents have worse outcomes? All the kids with engaged parents who participated in online classes from home probably did just fine. I'm not saying going to school doesn't matter, I'm saying that what kind of school you go to is going to matter a lot less if your parents can't do a good job. Or put another way, what kind of parents you have is…

that anecdote leads to the same conclusion

not quite. your claim was that with a bad situation at home, school does not make a difference. while i understand the opposite. the worse the situation at home, the more of a difference school makes for them.

i see it like this:

    good home + good school = good outcome
    good home + no school = good outcome
    
    bad home + good school = ok outcome
    bad home + no school = bad outcome
so for a good home school does not matter. for a bad home it does. (i am ignoring bad schools, they probably make things worse in either case)

Re: Public Montessori programs strengthen learning outcomes at lower costs: study

#183

Post by em-bee »

rkomorn wrote: post #175
em-bee wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was also pretty far behind in math for reasons unrelated to ability. I also left with very underdeveloped time management and study skills. if that is the case you didn't experience a good montessori program, because that should have taken care of that.

Sounds like a no true Scotsman: "If it didn't work, it wasn't good Montessori."

rather it wasn't montessori period. as it has been mentioned multiple times, the name montessori is not protected. anyone can claim to be a montessori teacher even if they didn't get any training. my wife went through AMI training. i have observed it at times. it is rigorous. and i have observed classes with trained teachers. the difference is noticeable

what i am saying is more like: if you didn't learn math in school you didn't have a good teacher. because no good teacher would fail at teaching you math. that's the very definition of what a good teacher is, and it is the definition of what good montessori is. the no true scotsman fallacy does not apply here.

if the expected outcome is not achieved, they were not doing it right.

Re: Public Montessori programs strengthen learning outcomes at lower costs: study

#184

Post by sgarland »

adolph wrote: post #55
sushp wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a good impression of "Montessori" from hearing that Larry/Sergey/Bezos went to one. When I put my kid in it at 3 years old, he hated it. As I looked into it more, it seems to me that it is actually very rigid, with kids being able to play with just a small set of toys that don't really exercise their creativity, and with little opportunity for group play. We switched him to a Reggio Emilia school where the kids…

> it is actually very rigid, with kids being able to play with just a small set of toys that don't really exercise their creativity There exist various implementations of Montessori. AMI was founded by Dr. Montessori [0] and certifies schools so that parents can have some assurance of adherence to a standard. The many materials in a Montessori classroom, including things that look like a dollhouse, don't exist for un…

> In those situations the Montessori classroom's weakness is that there is only one guide for all subjects as opposed to a traditional school's subject-specific teachers.

This is very much dependent on the school (and probably age of the students). At the one my kids go to, as soon as they’re in 1st grade, they have multiple teachers: science, music (which doubles as theater - the entire school does an annual play), art, and P.E., in addition to their main teacher.

Re: Public Montessori programs strengthen learning outcomes at lower costs: study

#185

Post by rkomorn »

em-bee wrote: post #183
rkomorn wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like a no true Scotsman: "If it didn't work, it wasn't good Montessori."

rather it wasn't montessori period. as it has been mentioned multiple times, the name montessori is not protected. anyone can claim to be a montessori teacher even if they didn't get any training. my wife went through AMI training. i have observed it at times. it is rigorous. and i have observed classes with trained teachers. the difference is noticeable what i am saying is more like: if you didn't learn math in scho…

So every good Montessori school has a 100% success rate? Edit: and corollary, I guess, any Montessori school that has less than 100% success rate is not a good Montessori school?

> the no true scotsman fallacy does not apply here.

I don't buy this at all.

Re: Public Montessori programs strengthen learning outcomes at lower costs: study

#186

Post by JKCalhoun »

WillAdams wrote: post #32

My children attended Montessori schools, and it really is a wonderful system. I would really like to see an extension of this learning method up through high school --- the closest thing I'm aware of was a school I attended in Mississippi for a couple of years --- classes were divided between academic and social, social classes (homeroom, phys ed, social studies, &c.) were attended at one's age, while academic classe…

There was a lot of experimentation with education methods in the 1970's, of which I benefited. I miss the way that decade began for the optimism and courage to experiment.

Re: Public Montessori programs strengthen learning outcomes at lower costs: study

#187

Post by em-bee »

rkomorn wrote: post #185
em-bee wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

rather it wasn't montessori period. as it has been mentioned multiple times, the name montessori is not protected. anyone can claim to be a montessori teacher even if they didn't get any training. my wife went through AMI training. i have observed it at times. it is rigorous. and i have observed classes with trained teachers. the difference is noticeable what i am saying is more like: if you didn't learn math in scho…

So every good Montessori school has a 100% success rate? Edit: and corollary, I guess, any Montessori school that has less than 100% success rate is not a good Montessori school? > the no true scotsman fallacy does not apply here. I don't buy this at all.

the no true scotsman fallacy goes like this: no true scotsman would to X, but then you find one that does X.

but the situation here is more like: no true scotsman doesn't have scottisch ancestors or at least live in scotland.

i don't have scottish ancestors, and i have never even been there, so i can't ever be a true scotsman, as much as i'd like to be one.

it doesn't have to be a 100% success rate but being pretty far behind in math is a serious failure that makes me question the qualification of the teacher.

it can't be a failure of the montessori method because the very design and goal of the method is to not let that happen. or at least the chance is very small. and then it is still a failure of the teacher and not the method.

and since anyone can claim to do montessori without any certification, my bet is on that being the case.

it would be like a car without wheels. no true car is missing wheels. it could not fulfill its purpose.

Re: Public Montessori programs strengthen learning outcomes at lower costs: study

#188

Post by rahimnathwani »

kqr wrote: post #147
rahimnathwani wrote: post #23

Table S34 shows that over 20% of the control group either stayed home or didn't provide info on what they did. (Compared with ~4% of the intent-to-treat group) So, sadly, they weren't able to directly compare 'public Montessori PK3' with 'public non-Montessori PK3'.

That lowers the statistical power of the experiment. It does not bias it. That's the beauty of intention-to-treat designs: they trade away bias for lower power -- a worthwhile trade every day of the week.

It's a worthwhile trade for sure.

That doesn't change the fact that the title and article (which is all that most people will read) paints that as comparing public Montessori preschool vs public non-Montessori preschool.

But that's not what it's doing!

The baseline condition was NOT one where everyone had access to a public PK3 as a fallback if they didn't win the lottery.

Re: Public Montessori programs strengthen learning outcomes at lower costs: study

#189

Post by savingsPossible »

objektif wrote: post #102
elzbardico wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At last for me, the last thing I wanted to my son would be for him to become Jeff Bezos.

Well said, see my post above. People think that becoming a rich psycho is somehow great. Montessori schools I visited were depressing AF.

Agree that they are rich psychos.

Disagree that this means the probabilistic signal is negative. They did become especially capable psychos.

Re: Public Montessori programs strengthen learning outcomes at lower costs: study

#190

Post by savingsPossible »

NedF wrote: post #117
WillAdams wrote: post #32

My children attended Montessori schools, and it really is a wonderful system. I would really like to see an extension of this learning method up through high school --- the closest thing I'm aware of was a school I attended in Mississippi for a couple of years --- classes were divided between academic and social, social classes (homeroom, phys ed, social studies, &c.) were attended at one's age, while academic classe…

> and it really is a wonderful system. Absolutely, how many ghetto kids are in the school? It weeds them out through $ and expulsions. Thinking the Montessori system is relevant to the public system shows your schooling failed. Montessori has the ability to chose pedagogy so certainly has facets that are the quite good and should be applied publicly except for liberal arts graduate ideals. This study is very young ch…

> Discipline is the only thing that matters in schools, $, class sizes, teacher education levels above average, amazing resources all don't matter except how it apply to discipline.

Got a citation/link?

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