Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Lost Chapter

aarongreenspan.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

181–190 of 246 posts

Re: The Lost Chapter

#181

Post by doktrin »

tptacek wrote: post #149
corporalagumbo wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jeez, did you have to write all that? Anyway, although I think you are focusing on the weakest part of Greenspan's argument - the point where he comes closest to bitterness - I was wondering if you'd like to invest $20,000 in my new venture. I'd like to sell crack heroin to junkies in Detroit. I'm sure as a fellow champion of guilt-free founder consciences, you will support my endeavour as I give gangbangers the chan…

Ok, Corporal A. Gumbo: Write it better. Do it and I'll donate $1000 that I promise I was not going to donate anyways to Partners In Health. There's an idea common to forums that I don't frequent that I recently learned of called an "ideological Turing test". The idea is to take a group of people divided along a controversy, and to get each side to anonymously write a coherent argument that capture's the other side's…

The challenge was not directed at me, but I'll take a brief stab at it :

"It is morally acceptable for some of the brighter minds of a generation to invest their time, effort and energy into developing social products - including but not limited to Facebook. These are fully legitimate free market business ventures, and we need to stop collectively pontificating about what may or may not constitute a socially worthy business goal."

This is, I believe, a more concise summary of the parent's perspective. It meets a different need, and I don't view it as being "better" per se.

Re: The Lost Chapter

#182

Post by johnx123-up »

swordsmith wrote: post #114

I've been reading Robert Greene's 48 Laws of Power recently, and throughout this essay, I can't help but think just how all the "moves" Zuckerburg were accused (and infamous) of were exemplary of a number of these laws. Not trying to pass judgement on Zuckerburg's virtues or lack thereof (it's best to accept the inherent unfairness in life on the road to power), but he is a master of power plays: Law 3: Never put too…

So, we can't find good businessmen?

Re: The Lost Chapter

#183

Post by 31reasons »

grellas wrote: post #77

Institutional investors made the mistake - again, and again, and again - of validating Mark's duplicitousness by pouring literally billions of dollars into his company, and then billions more into startups seeking to emulate it. Some of their investments created out of thin air industries that contribute absolutely nothing to, and in many cases even detract from, society. . . . Most mind-boggling of all, it's been cl…

On an unrelated note, I am curious, how can you write such long comments while working as lawyer ? Are you taking any Nootropics ? Please note that this is not a sarcasm, I am just trying to be as sharp as you are with the limited time that I have during the day :)

Re: The Lost Chapter

#184

Post by cuergas »

jamesaguilar wrote: post #178
cuergas wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither Tesla nor SpaceX rely on millions of fickle web users handing over their personal information and regularly signing in to a website to look at photos and status updates. Nor can they be easily replicated by a competitor who is not a jackass.

Apparently neither can Facebook, if recent attempts are any indication.

Replicated is the wrong word. Superceded is maybe a bit better. Never say never my friend. These things take time.

Re: The Lost Chapter

#185

Post by corporalagumbo »

intended wrote: post #174
cuergas wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does this also apply to Mexican drug cartels? Not that I am comparing FB to drug dealers, but I'm just curious how to apply this handy definition of capitalism. Are there any limitations?

I don't see where in capitalism illegal acts are included in its ambit. It said let the markets decide, it didn't include freedoms to pursue crime. At this point you could bring up the definition of criminal vs unethical. Lets side step that by agreeing on the basic intuitions behind capitalism. Capitalism is a system aimed at answering the question: what is the best way human beings can organize themselves to best d…

I happen to think that Zynga is a 21st century drug dealer. Their "games" are designed to turn people into clicking-addicted machines, slowly depleting their psychological until they start buying virtual gold. Plus, companies like Zynga target the most psychologically vulnerable members of society. Probably the worst is children.

Give it 15 years and Zynga-style behaviour will be subject to legal restrictions, I'd say.

Re: The Lost Chapter

#186

Post by corporalagumbo »

asr wrote: post #33
dasil003 wrote: post #7

People get screwed over all the time. Getting screwed over by Zuckerberg, well, that's an elite club, but time to move on with your life. If you keep it only as a good story for the grand kids maybe it won't eat up the rest of your potential.

Seriously, does this guy not have any parents/siblings/super close friends who can tell him it's time to move on? This is a great happy hour story, but not such a great epitaph. On the bright side, at least he's thematically consistent! "I keep getting screwed over by life" is the only reason I can think of to start the post with so many words about Final Clubs before the pivot.... Suffice it to say, anyone who can g…

I can see how Greenspan's experience would not exactly be easy to move on from. At stake is not his own personal success, but his belief about how the world should work. Greenspan sounds like a pretty moral guy, the kind of guy who gets upset when things happen that he thinks are wrong. Basically, you're asking him to shrug and move on but for him, an antisocial bastard is in the spotlight smiling and waving and being showered with praise by the press. It sounds like, for someone like him, fixing this mistake is more important than any other typical SV-type venture he could throw himself into.

Or he could just be incompetent and bitter. Who knows.

Re: The Lost Chapter

#187

Post by corporalagumbo »

lotharbot wrote: post #148
corporalagumbo wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, just to make sure I'm understanding you: are you saying that there is a group of people on HN who will vigorously downvote me or anyone else simply for satirically rebutting a laughably verbose comment from a popular user? Hmm, and I thought I was finished with primary school.

There are people on HN who will vigorously downvote you for unnecessary disparaging comments like "Jeez, did you have to write all that?" , "laughably verbose" [0], or "I thought I was finished with primary school." While those lines may not technically violate the letter of the guidelines [1], they violate the spirit of the section that says "please reply to the argument instead of calling names" . Note that the nex…

You're right. I just read that first Matroshka sentence ("There needs to be a label placed on the idea of feeling the need to bow to the wishes of critics who try to limit the idea of valid entrepreneurship to activities deemed "beneficial to society."") and I couldn't help myself. I did "grok" his argument but I rushed and left some of my assumptions implicit. So yes, I could have set out my rebuttal more cogently.

Re: The Lost Chapter

#188

Post by corporalagumbo »

tptacek wrote: post #147
freshhawk wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a label already, "ethical". Argue all you want over the ethics of facebook, or if entrepreneurs have any duty to act ethically, not unethically, not illegally or just not get caught. You don't need a new label though. You sure did write a lot complaining about people using their free speech to criticize businesses they feel are either harmful or a waste of resources because this is a "free country". I was un…

Only in places like Hacker News is there a consensus opinion that Facebook is "a new addictive and time wasting form of entertainment who's contribution society is null or negative". Facebook has increased the number of interactions I have with my extended family by roughly a factor of infinity --- and I'm one of those nerds who's run a mailing list for his family since the mid '90s. A more concise way to say what 'g…

Just to be clear, I do not share this opinion of Facebook.

Re: The Lost Chapter

#189

Post by cuergas »

corporalagumbo wrote: post #185
intended wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see where in capitalism illegal acts are included in its ambit. It said let the markets decide, it didn't include freedoms to pursue crime. At this point you could bring up the definition of criminal vs unethical. Lets side step that by agreeing on the basic intuitions behind capitalism. Capitalism is a system aimed at answering the question: what is the best way human beings can organize themselves to best d…

I happen to think that Zynga is a 21st century drug dealer. Their "games" are designed to turn people into clicking-addicted machines, slowly depleting their psychological until they start buying virtual gold. Plus, companies like Zynga target the most psychologically vulnerable members of society. Probably the worst is children. Give it 15 years and Zynga-style behaviour will be subject to legal restrictions, I'd sa…

Dude, you are cracking me up. And I know you're not joking either. Thanks for bringing some life to an emotionally bereft forum.

You are familiar with this term they have for the big spenders on Zynga? "Whales". What kind of person calls someone with an addiction a "whale"? Maybe some people are just too immature to be taking payments from users.

Oh, it's all good. We're making people happy.

No one is arguing for a "goody two shoes, save the world" standard that all web startups must meet. We're simply observing that certain "founders" obviously have no soul. And worshipping a sociopath like Zuckerberg is not a pleasant signal. We can do better.

Re: The Lost Chapter

#190

Post by intended »

corporalagumbo wrote: post #185
intended wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see where in capitalism illegal acts are included in its ambit. It said let the markets decide, it didn't include freedoms to pursue crime. At this point you could bring up the definition of criminal vs unethical. Lets side step that by agreeing on the basic intuitions behind capitalism. Capitalism is a system aimed at answering the question: what is the best way human beings can organize themselves to best d…

I happen to think that Zynga is a 21st century drug dealer. Their "games" are designed to turn people into clicking-addicted machines, slowly depleting their psychological until they start buying virtual gold. Plus, companies like Zynga target the most psychologically vulnerable members of society. Probably the worst is children. Give it 15 years and Zynga-style behaviour will be subject to legal restrictions, I'd sa…

I understand the sentiment, I am unable to traverse your distance.

Firstly - I'm not sure if this is part of the topic at hand. Secondly a good response is going to be pretty detailed, since you've touched on a huge topic.

Technology has moved faster than legislation. Which is fine and expected. The technology brings up intricate questions which take time to answer, let alone decide on what/how/if something is to be legislated.

Thats the part which is relevant to the original discussion. Technology may leap ahead, it doesn't mean that legal understanding wont catch up and be good at it drawing the line.

--------------

A more detailed response on your assertion that Zynga is a 21st century drug dealer. While I think social games do raise some important and concerning issues, I think the responses will fall short of the distance you travel.

Zynga's games, and a large group of social games for example; are cute skinner boxes. I don't see how legislating against that aspect will be viable.

At most I can see rules laid down to ensure that the slot machine/random aspect of it, has some clear cut pay out schemes that must be enforced.

Nor do I see how I can make a case where ".. are designed to turn people into clicking-addicted machines." Its a skinner box. People have an ancient immunity to things like this, namely boredom.

Over time, people get bored and drift away. Witness the share price of Zynga and dropping engagement rates.

I've also played with, and worked alongside a lot of those psychologically vulnerable members of society - they've all pretty much gone on to kick the 'habit' or manage it like entertainment.

I've also been looking at data or articles that come out on internet addiction and gaming addiction; most people can barely agree that this is a condition. Only a few people are categorized as being victims, compared to the large number of people who play video games or use the net.

Post reply on HN