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Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

blog.pragmaticengineer.com

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Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#181

Post by globalise83 »

gregoryl wrote: post #164
peterpeppers wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the 2010s, we had a similar situation but it wasn’t illegal. I used to work for a large drug distributor both pre and during the opioid epidemic. At the time (pre-SUPPORT Act), distributors weren’t required to notify the DEA about anomalous ordering so we didn’t provide data to law enforcement unless they sent a subpoena. To increase profits, we identified our best customers of opioids and updated our inventory tr…

It really seems like you have effectively caused the deaths of many people through your actions. Does that have a lingering impact on you?

"We the software engineering team were paid well for it"

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#182

Post by whoknowsidont »

ghssds wrote: post #123
testing22321 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Na, just ban all of them and all their families from ever having health insurance again so they can suffer the same fate they doomed others too intentionally . Make an example and all that.

It's counter-productive to punish someone for something out of their control. One should not be punished for his parents', siblings' or childs' actions.

>It's counter-productive to punish someone for something out of their control.

For people in specific classes that benefit from networks and status: it is not.

It should be default. If you abuse your power and position, it should have cascading effects not just for you but people that benefited from it.

This idea that only one person at fault when there are 10's of people that hide behind the crime is just non-sense and has done immeasurable damage to society.

And I stress again: it should be income bracket/class based. The higher you are, the harder the fall.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#183

Post by jkaplowitz »

thephyber wrote: post #176
gljiva wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have the families of those "insurers" made a decision to harm others?

A different lens to view this: If you benefit from receiving stolen property, does the law force you to return it? One way of interpreting your scare quotes is that the executives turned a health insurer into a law violating company. Obviously there are burdens of proof and this is most likely not possible to prosecute (it sounds like the health insurer has already shrunk and based on the date of the anecdote above,…

> If you benefit from receiving stolen property, does the law force you to return it?

The general answer to that is: it depends on a lot of factors, but sometimes yes and sometimes no. The specific answer varies between jurisdictions, I think even between different US states and certainly between countries. It's often relevant whether you knew or should reasonably have known at the time of purchase that the property was stolen.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#184

Post by jkaplowitz »

thrown-0825-2 wrote: post #163

Unionize?

Could help for some cases, but at least two of the three examples in the article were engineering directors, who are generally excluded from unionization rights in the US at least. (Other countries vary in how low-level line managers are treated by their employment laws, but the closer a manager gets to the senior executive ranks, the less those employment laws allow them to do anything akin to unionizing.)

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#185

Post by kstenerud »

ghssds wrote: post #123
testing22321 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Na, just ban all of them and all their families from ever having health insurance again so they can suffer the same fate they doomed others too intentionally . Make an example and all that.

It's counter-productive to punish someone for something out of their control. One should not be punished for his parents', siblings' or childs' actions.

Yep. We have laws against that sort of thing precisely because it's such a common human reaction to an injustice.

You can even see the evidence in many of the sister comments here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_punishment

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#186

Post by thfuran »

adrianN wrote: post #168
jliptzin wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not even a punishment anyway, they can easily afford to pay for their care out of pocket.

It is my understanding that in the US many common health issues can cost you millions of dollars.

A few million dollars would probably cover months in the ICU, so not exactly common. A few tens of thousands would be a more plausible ambulance ride to ER followed by emergency surgery and a few days in the hospital, which still isn’t very common. Carrying a pregnancy to term and delivery can be similarly expensive though.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#187

Post by ruszki »

zero_k wrote: post #29

I wish I could tell a story. Alas, I can't. It turns out that large corporations are excellent at hiding evidence of wrongdoing, and will do everything to cover the backside of high-level execs, because stock price matters. When it's bad, the exec leaves for a "better opportunity", and none will be wiser. The stress of the honest, serious engineer(s) remain, and the exec gets a free ride to their next big beautiful s…

It depends on the country. It’s not possible to operate large companies in Hungary without paying to the prime minister’s family. When I lived there, I signed a paper at a large multinational company as a simple developer. The paper’s only purpose was to channel EU funds to the family. I was naive, and I thought that it’s a real project, with real work. It wasn’t. Later I realised why some of my coworkers were against it, but I didn’t believe that that company would go down on that route. I was really naive.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#188

Post by _9ptr »

bjt wrote: post #142
throwaway173738 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might want to think about why Petersen wants you to think you’re the Nazi. What change is he trying to effect in our culture, and how does that belief support his desire? Rhetoric always aims to effect some change in the attitude of the listener, and never without some benefit of the speaker.

> You might want to think about why Petersen wants you to think you’re the Nazi. What change is he trying to effect in our culture, and how does that belief support his desire? Rhetoric always aims to effect some change in the attitude of the listener, and never without some benefit of the speaker. What benefit do you think he's trying to get from it? I'm honestly trying to figure out the nefarious angle and coming u…

[flagged]

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#189

Post by vkou »

mitthrowaway2 wrote: post #124
rahimnathwani wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you mean: A) Software developers should be free to sign a code of ethics, or B) Software developers should be compelled to sign a code of ethics, and be prevented from working if they refuse to sign, or C) Something else.

In Canada, (B) is how it works for engineers, including software engineers.

Most software engineers in Canada don't call themselves 'Engineers' and don't have any ethics codes they need to follow.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#190

Post by vkou »

mrheosuper wrote: post #25
sltr wrote: post #3

Software developers should sign a code of ethics, like other professions do and then cite it when asked to do unscrupulous things. This would work for activities that aren't illegal but still unethical, like defaulting user privacy choices to open/public. Citing professional organizations like ACM or IEEE would deter retaliation.

I wonder how would that work when you are working for companies like Lockheed Martin, knowing your code will be used in weapon that may kill innocent people.

It's easy, you just tell yourself that all of them are the enemy. As long as you outsource your morality and thinking to the Department of State, you can sleep easy.
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