Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

masteringemacs.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

181–190 of 283 posts

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#181

Post by pimlottc »

dotancohen wrote: post #4

All I want is a quality split mechanical keyboard with Function keys. I use an IDE all day, I don't want to pull quadruple buckies every time I debug. The Matias Ergo Pro is almost perfect, but I had two of them and they both failed within one year. I had one of each switch type (low force and regular) - both were missing some button presses and repeating other button presses.

I agree, they’re darn near perfect, but they always end up with repeated characters or “key chatter”. It’s such a shame, I’ve basically resigned myself to buying a new one ever year or two, but I hate the waste.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#182

Post by ziml77 »

mewse-hn wrote: post #87
Twey wrote: post #73

> proponents of mechanical keyboards say you need fewer keys than a regular keyboard, for _reasons_ That's a bit of a generalization. Mechanical keyboards like the Hyper7 exist that have enough for even the most key-hungry typist. If you want an ergonomic mechanical keyboard with many keys there are also some of those out there, like the Kinesis line or the Glove80. That said, one thing people mean by ‘ergonomic’ is…

I'm a mech keyboard enthusiast and an ansi 104 full size ride-or-die > (Because subcultures are subdivided recursively, the _gaming_ mechanical keyboard subcrowd also often like small keyboards, for reasons I don't really know but are presumably quite different from the reasons the ergonomic mechanical keyboard subcrowd have.) The explanation I've always heard for TKL for gamers is that removing the numpad leaves mor…

I just like how everything aligns on my desk better (in terms of comfort) with a TKL board. And I was never a numpad user anyway. Maybe if I was typing numbers into spreadsheets all day I would have a different opinion on the necessity of the numpad

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#183

Post by Jcampuzano2 »

microtonal wrote: post #111
waynesonfire wrote: post #23

Those thumbs are doing a lot of work. Can't imagine that being ergonomic.

Not sure why people are downvoting this. This is a serious concern and quite a lot some people using thumb clusters develop thumb discomfort or pain: https://getreuer.info/posts/keyboards/thumb-ergo/index.html In my experience (having also had thumb discomfort on ergo boards) thumb clusters can be great, but you have to make sure to avoid too much thumb movement.

When I first got a keyboard with a thumb cluster that had 6 keys I was originally a bit overzealous and had a bunch of relatively frequently used keys assigned to them. I actually ended up developing a little bit of what I think was some tendonitis in my thumbs when I first started using it quite a bit.

Ever since then, I primarily only use two of the keys of each thumb clusters with frequency, and they both require very little movement to reach (the two large keys on a kinesis 360). The others that require a little bit more extending of the thumb are more infrequently used keys that don't ring all the time.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#184

Post by tom_ »

distances wrote: post #140
dotancohen wrote: post #4

All I want is a quality split mechanical keyboard with Function keys. I use an IDE all day, I don't want to pull quadruple buckies every time I debug. The Matias Ergo Pro is almost perfect, but I had two of them and they both failed within one year. I had one of each switch type (low force and regular) - both were missing some button presses and repeating other button presses.

You got a lot of exotic suggestions, I'll give one closer to normal: Perixx Periboard 535. Split (though non-adjustable), low profile mechanical switches with three options, three tilting levels, wired or wireless, with or without numpad. And has function keys. Also quite cheap. I got the wired option with tactile brown switches and numpad, and I've been happy with this. I was looking for a replacement for MS Sculpt…

Seconded. They're pretty good and I've found them a decent replacement for the MS Ergonomic 4000 keyboards that I used to use. Full size keyboard with keys in the normal places, reverse tilt, manageable F lock, and a cable to connect it to your computer.

I've got one with clicky blue switches, which is fun to type on but a bit loud, and one with silent red switches, which is pleasant to use but the key activation is perhaps a bit too light. I sometimes find myself pressing the keys when I thought I was just hovering my fingers.

The folding stands are a weak point. The MS 4000/Sculpt sort of design, whereby the riser is a solid piece of plastic that the keyboard rests on, is much better.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#185

Post by Jcampuzano2 »

ivanb wrote: post #130

The whole area is full of contradictions: - mechanical keys - reduced movement; - buy a custom build - have industrial build quality; - barely any movement - good blood flow; - avoid rolling - type fast; - concave keyboards - tenting; - fewer keys - minimal; - uniformly shaped keys - touch typing feedback; - keep hands on the keyboard - move pointer precisely; - custom layout - conventional shortcuts. This is ridicul…

Not to be a Debbie Downer, but even if you use all of the correct postures, correct movement, and everything is done correctly, you can still end up with issues if you just do the same thing over and over.

It's relatively agreed upon nowadays that there actually is no "correct posture". The issue is primarily exacerbated by being in the same posture all of the time, doing the same movements all the time, and especially so in positions that aren't so natural for our body - and typing is not a natural movement/position for the wrists.

I developed issues despite always standing or sitting on a supposed ergonomic char, moving my hands a lot while typing, working out and exercising consistently, etc.

Until I started having issues I probably would have also been in the same camp that "oh this is ridiculous". Now I take anyone with chronic pain much more seriously.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#186

Post by Jcampuzano2 »

microtonal wrote: post #117
wahnfrieden wrote: post #25

I love my Glove80 with Pro Red chocs. Kinesis Advantage for 15 years before that one. Another commenter complained that it feels insubstantial. However its light weight is much preferred for travel. It's fine.

100% agree. I have almost never travelled with my Advantage2 or 360 when I still had them. But the Glove80 is so light that it’s easy to carry with me. The Advantage helped me a lot, but the Glove80 is the only keyboard I’ve truly loved using. The key well is insanely well-designed and even though the tenting is a bit of work to set up, it is really tailored to my preferred angle. MoErgo is also expanding the Choc ke…

I mentioned in my comment not liking how flimsy is felt. It is very light and that can be a plus but when I tried traveling with it with tenting setup, often the rods became loose, it formed an awkward shape so didn't fit in the carrying case they provided in the first place, would not sit well in my backpack, and often times I'm not sure why but keys would pop out.

Resetting the tenting up everytime I travel/go somewhere with it is not really convenient at all, so its not really a decent option.

I don't often travel with the 360, but when I do, I just lower it to the lowest level and its never had an issue except for the obvious bulkiness.

Another issue is because its so light, it would often shift around on my desk while typing, and I've seen others complain about this as well. Maybe its just an issue of how hard you type, or how much friction your desk provides.

If I could get a mix between a 360 with the shape of the glove 80's keywell and key setup, but with the sturdiness of the 360 I'd buy it no questions asked.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#187

Post by nickzelei »

I bought a moonlander in 2020 after work gave us a work from home credit when we transitioned to remote for Covid. I tried it but couldn’t get into it and it sat collecting dust for years. In 2024 I dove back into splits with a kinesis freestyle 2. I loved it as it felt more natural as it’s a basic keyboard just split.

After I got used to that I was able to migrate to the moonlander pretty easily. I just had to spend the time to sent it up properly for programming.

Now I own 2, each with the platform addon, which solves many of the issues with tenting as you no longer have to pivot the thumb cluster. It is expensive though.

Both keyboards also have shrimp switches to make typing pretty quiet.

This combined with a ball mouse have solved my RSI that developed a few years ago entirely.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#188

Post by Jcampuzano2 »

qwerpy wrote: post #75
FridgeSeal wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a Moonlander and I genuinely don’t understand why so many split keyboards do this. “Here’s a really nice split keyboard. But we’ve removed everything except the alphanumerics” Whhhyyyy. “Oh but it’s programmable. And you can have layers. And you can have macros” Cool. I actually didn’t want any of that. I just wanted a single row of function keys. My Moonlander can somehow make space for a “meh” key, a “caps w…

I completely agree. Moonlander would be perfect with a F key row and dedicated modifier keys. The purists will sneer, but they could always take off the keycaps and switches if they want to show off how minimal they are. I don't spend all my time in vim, my job is mostly emails and docs now. Muscle memory decays for all the fancy chords/layers/macros/etc and I don't have infinite time to spend tweaking keyboard layou…

You don't need infinite time, you just need to do it until you get all your personal needs covered.

Personally I have an advantage 360 pro. The only function keys I actually use with frequency are F12 and F2, used for shortcuts in editors. I just put F12 and F2 on thumb keys. Problem solved.

Some people go all in on layers, but I actually use minimal layers at all. I can do everything I need with just the base layer from how I have it setup. I only have a second layer setup that allows using VIM-like navigation (i.e. up, down, left, right, page-down, page-up etc) from the home row in my browser. But technically I also have those on the base layer just in the normal positions.

I actually had a similar mindset, I do not want to have to create tons of layers and combinations, so I optimized my layout around just the base layout but added a layer just for convenience later on.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#189

Post by cjbgkagh »

ziml77 wrote: post #180
DanHulton wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an FYI, I had a similar issue and tried a whole lot of things, including different mechanical keyboards, with which I had a variety of successes and failures. But ultimately what REALLY helped was going to physiotherapy and identifying muscle groups in my back that were weak, causing me to sit weird and support my arms with muscles in my shoulders that weren't designed for that. And because all of this is connecte…

I wonder if anyone who's switched to an ergonomic setup has found that it stops working as well over time. Because I have long suspected that the real problems (in many cases) come down to weak muscles. But these ergonomic setups are likely to weaken them even more over a long enough period of time given that they try to avoid all of the strain.

Programmers are far more likely to have hyper-mobility than the general population, it makes it far more difficult / impossible to maintain good posture. If they don’t strength train they’ll end up rather weak regardless. So my general recommendation is to reduce injuries by being as ergonomic as possible while also hitting the gym. I use a reclining chair because I can’t avoid slouching no matter how ergonomic the chair is and it works for me. I also take Performance Enhancing Drugs (PEDs), hgh peptides and test cypionate. If you’ve seen what happens to people like myself with severe hEDS you’d understand why. Most programmers are not as severe but tend to have some form of ‘benign’ generalized hyper mobility.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#190

Post by Jcampuzano2 »

dotancohen wrote: post #150
squigz wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very basic customization of a tool you use all day for your job. This is a strange attitude to me coming from a programmer.

I used to customise my car, my keyboard, even my fountain pens. Now, I just want to use them. I bought a car that's quick enough to pass lumbering trucks on tight roads (Tesla Model 3), I bought a pen that fits my hand and writes comfortably (Jinhao A10 EF), and I'd love a keyboard like the Matias Ergo Pro that I don't need to replace every year.

Not sure where you're getting the idea that you need to replace the keyboard every year. And you only really have to customize the keyboard for a short while until it covers your personal needs.

It took me maybe 1 week total after getting used to the keyboard to set it up in a way that worked for me personally, and the keyboard has already lasted a year and still works like new, and looks like new, and many people have had the same ergo-keyboard for years on end.

I like you did not like the idea of having to finnick with it all the time, but in reality those are just the enthusiasts. I set it up in a couple weeks and ever since then I've probably only messed with it a few times more just to try something out of curiosity.

Post reply on HN