How to be a leader when the vibes are off • Hacker News Board

Re: How to be a leader when the vibes are off

#181

Post by scott_w » Thu, Sep 25, 2025, 4:02 PM UTC

atoav wrote: post #146

scott_w wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what is your expert advice? A manager runs their mouth off publicly, gets fired/made redundant, and gets replaced with a manager who does buy into the company line? What concrete differences in behaviour would you expect to see?

A good manager gets in a fight with their superior(s) if their superior happens to be wrong. A bad manager will avoid conflict with their superior, nod too unrealistic demands and then badmouth the superior with their team. A catastrophic manager will actively push unrealistic plans towards their superior. For me the main difference between a good and a bad manager is that the good manager is interested in delivering…

> A good manager gets in a fight with their superior(s) if their superior happens to be wrong. A bad manager will avoid conflict with their superior, nod too unrealistic demands and then badmouth the superior with their team. A catastrophic manager will actively push unrealistic plans towards their superior.

You've put forward a false dichotomy between punching my manager in the face and nodding along silently to everything I'm told. Frankly, both will get me fired pretty quickly.

Business don't work on managers fighting to the death on every decision we think is right. They work on managers pushing back where we think something isn't correct. If my manager disagrees, it's his job to override me and say "I hear your concerns. Do it anyway." That can happen for many reasons, some good and some bad. At that point, however, my role as a manager is to disagree, accept the decision and do my best. Or look for another job.

Re: How to be a leader when the vibes are off

#182

Post by zovirl » Thu, Sep 25, 2025, 4:47 PM UTC

jdefr89 wrote: post #53

neilv wrote: post #51

> The right thing to do in this situation is to acknowledge that you see the situation the same way they do, but do it privately, within your immediate team only or in 1-1s. "Yeah, this new policy sucks, [...] If you're a manager in a company that does sucky things, does (inevitably) being quoted saying a policy 'sucks' risk you losing your manager job there? I'm an OG techie, who ends up doing some manager-y things,…

Your employees won’t rat you out… Just don’t say “sucky” to those above you. If I have a cool ass manager who looks out for me and is real (I’m lucky enough to be at a MIT lab where everyone is cool as hell), I will always have their back…

Even in situations where this is true, there's almost certainly a better phrasing than "this new policy sucks," which only communicates an emotion. It is imprecise. Listeners will jump to their own conclusions about why you think it sucks.

You can acknowledge the problems more directly: "I get it, we don't have enough chairs so Wednesday is likely to be a challenge." or "I know mandatory 9-5 is going to disrupt your commute."

A bonus of the more precise approach is you can follow up with "do you have other issues with the new policy that I may not know?"

Re: How to be a leader when the vibes are off

#183

Post by darth_avocado » Thu, Sep 25, 2025, 4:48 PM UTC

EZ-E wrote: post #132

darth_avocado wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know if I’m misinterpreting the blog, but this feels like it suggest you just fall in line with the upper management while providing lip service to the plebs. As an IC I’ve always despised managers who’d be a very sympathetic ear in 1:1s but always be “part of the system” when it mattered the most. Yes it’s always good to not get into public arguments with the upper management, but this gives off a lot of “pl…

> this feels like it suggest you just fall in line with the upper management while providing lip service to the plebs. As an IC I’ve always despised managers who’d be a very sympathetic ear in 1:1s but always be “part of the system” when it mattered the most You're "part of the system" the moment you sign the employment contract for a manager position, this is literally your job to fall in line with upper management.…

> manager's job is to apply upper management decision even if you don't fully agree

That is not at all true. The manager’s job is to manage employees in a way that is in the best interests of the company. I’ve met plenty of leaders through my career who are successfully able to shield their employees from an incompetent management. That is part of the job.

Re: How to be a leader when the vibes are off

#184

Post by tedggh » Thu, Sep 25, 2025, 5:08 PM UTC

“Even when you don’t agree with decisions the company leadership is making, part of your job is representing and facilitating those decisions with full alignment. When acting “in public” (all-hands, department meetings, the #general channel), this is mandatory, as contradicting the bosses in a broad forum can kill the credibility you have the leadership across the wider team“

Take this advice with a grain of salt. If bad decisions can lead to very bad things and you know it you must push back even if that means getting fired. This is particularly important when the life and wellbeing of others are at stake. Just look at Boeing to see how prioritizing a job over ethics can actually kill people and destroy companies.

Re: How to be a leader when the vibes are off

#185

Post by darth_avocado » Thu, Sep 25, 2025, 5:08 PM UTC

scott_w wrote: post #125

darth_avocado wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know if I’m misinterpreting the blog, but this feels like it suggest you just fall in line with the upper management while providing lip service to the plebs. As an IC I’ve always despised managers who’d be a very sympathetic ear in 1:1s but always be “part of the system” when it mattered the most. Yes it’s always good to not get into public arguments with the upper management, but this gives off a lot of “pl…

So what is your expert advice? A manager runs their mouth off publicly, gets fired/made redundant, and gets replaced with a manager who does buy into the company line? What concrete differences in behaviour would you expect to see?

> Yes it’s always good to not get into public arguments with the upper management

I already mentioned that running your mouth isn’t an option. Upward management is part of the job and “shut up and fall in line” isn’t upward management. Plenty of leaders manage to shield their teams from incompetent management and it is usually what is in the best interests of the company.

And there’s nothing wrong with looking out for yourself as a manager when you have responsibilities, but characterizing it as “best practices when navigating a difficult time” doesn’t sit well with me.

Re: How to be a leader when the vibes are off

#186

Post by ajkjk » Thu, Sep 25, 2025, 5:15 PM UTC

elzbardico wrote: post #70

ajkjk wrote: post #4

Well, this advice is all tailored towards "how to keep your job and make your money as a leader when the vibes are off". But I and almost everyone else would prefer the question you're asking to be "how to start the revolution when the vibes are off"; explanations on how best to not fight the ways everything is going to shit are explanations of how to be complicit with it. For example, buying into the company message…

Yeah. Be the fearless revolution leader in a corporation during a tricky job market era and not only you'll be fired, your subordinates, by association, will be tagged as radioactive material.

please! yes! good!

good lord people on this site need to develop what used to be called class consciousness. It's only an employer's market because everyone just takes all the punches without reacting. which is easy because they're paid a lot but still--wouldn't it be better to not have to take them?

Re: How to be a leader when the vibes are off

#187

Post by ajkjk » Thu, Sep 25, 2025, 5:20 PM UTC

dasil003 wrote: post #19

ajkjk wrote: post #4

Well, this advice is all tailored towards "how to keep your job and make your money as a leader when the vibes are off". But I and almost everyone else would prefer the question you're asking to be "how to start the revolution when the vibes are off"; explanations on how best to not fight the ways everything is going to shit are explanations of how to be complicit with it. For example, buying into the company message…

This is an easy reaction to have in an internet forum, and of course it will get a lot of support because it resonates with the rank and file, so you'll naturally get a lot of internet points at places like HN and LinkedIn. But as you rise in the org chart things get more nuanced and complicated. First, you have to pick your battles. You can stand up for precisely as much as your reputation allows, and in a large cor…

I see the general philosophy that people should not protest their indignities as leading to a culture where it is weird to do so which is why it is so hard for everyone to do it---nobody around them does it.

There is supposed to be a baseline amount of respect in an organization that dissolves most of the need for bitterness and power struggles. Tech companies I have worked at and heard about mostly do not have this. The more hypermodern the company, the less they have it. It's the principal reason why modern tech is so dystopian: because whatever happens to you, you are just expected to take it, and you're paid a lot so shut the fuck up. I've worked at several famous tech companies and I have very little respect for any of the management there because of the amount of "shut up and take the money" attitude there is. The organization rots, culturally, and everyone's life is devoid of meaning, and success is proportional to how much you can cope with a life that's devoid of meaning or just bask in the money, but the whole thing is hopeless and at some level doomed. Also, a leaderless organization has no morality, which is why every big tech company just gets progressively more evil, because who would stop them?

It's a horrible equilibrium, and the incentives (public stocks, short-termism, a taboo against conflict). Now I don't think any old person is going to stand up and fight it off singlehandedly. But the first step of doing something about it is normalizing the understanding that people should be doing something. You may not be able to stand up yourself, or maybe not yet, but you should at least agree in principle with doing so.

My feeling is that at an organization where people and leadership don't have mutual respect, everyone lives a hollow and soulless and unfulfilled existence. Maybe that is good for certain psychopaths, I don't know, but everyone would be happier if it was not this way. And almost certainly the company would be more stable and healthy and less short-termist, as well. It is astounding how bad the decision making that comes out an unaccountable organization is. Thing is, money in tech has been so free that even an organization run by inhuman idiots can still be profitable. It shouldn't be; competition should be destroying anything that is done with such mediocrity... but it is, because the whole system is broken as hell right now.

Re: How to be a leader when the vibes are off

#188

Post by neilv » Thu, Sep 25, 2025, 5:34 PM UTC

sebstefan wrote: post #143

neilv wrote: post #51

> The right thing to do in this situation is to acknowledge that you see the situation the same way they do, but do it privately, within your immediate team only or in 1-1s. "Yeah, this new policy sucks, [...] If you're a manager in a company that does sucky things, does (inevitably) being quoted saying a policy 'sucks' risk you losing your manager job there? I'm an OG techie, who ends up doing some manager-y things,…

>does (inevitably) being quoted saying a policy 'sucks' risk you losing your manager job there? It won't happen but even if it did the people above you understand the role & predicament of a middle manager...

Maybe. Many people would react very negatively to someone down the org chart from them contradicting them to those below.

(Example: CEO says we're doing this thing because bold leadership. Manager tells their people is dumb or wrong. ICs openly grumble about CEO being a big jerky doody-head. CEO hears that and says WTF is this manager undermining bold leadership.)

Re: How to be a leader when the vibes are off

#189

Post by bluefirebrand » Thu, Sep 25, 2025, 5:41 PM UTC

tao_oat wrote: post #138

bluefirebrand wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think I've ever worked anywhere that executives are actually capable of taking feedback constructively In all cases they have eventually just told me to shut up, no matter how diplomatic I try to be, and in some cases it has led to me being terminated Feedback is just taken as a sign that you aren't aligned with their vision, so you have to go

out of curiosity, what would it look like to take feedback constructively, but not follow it? i'm asking because (in my experience) executives get hundreds of pieces of feedback and advice. they can't follow all of it, and so they have to prioritize, and their priorities might not overlap completely with those of ICs.

> out of curiosity, what would it look like to take feedback constructively, but not follow it

You need to have good reasons

> their priorities might not overlap completely with those of ICs

Then their ICs are fully reasonable to be pissed off

If a company's desires doesn't align with the desires of the workers, then there is a big problem imo

Re: How to be a leader when the vibes are off

#190

Post by oytis » Thu, Sep 25, 2025, 5:45 PM UTC

scott_w wrote: post #179

oytis wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ideally if a manager cannot stand behind what the company is doing barring minor or temporary disagreements, they leave. That's what I've seen the best managers doing before - not sure how it works in the current market though

Most of us aren't working for IBM building counting machines for the Nazis. We're talking about a situation where you think the company is making bad decisions, not one where you have an ideological disagreement. If a manager isn't able to function in this environment then, frankly, I'm not sure that person is cut out to be a leader or manager...

It's not about functioning it's about integrity. As a manager you represent the company, and you represent the decisions. If you are not able to do it sincerely, you either do what the author describes or you go somewhere that aligns with you better. Good ones often have lower tolerance to bullshit and actually have choice, so they go. Sometimes you don't have a choice indeed.