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Why is Venus hell and Earth an Eden?

quantamagazine.org

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Re: Why is Venus hell and Earth an Eden?

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you deorbit Venus is such a way that your inflatable balloon city comes to a gentle stop, 30 miles up, and just floats there? Worse still, when people need to leave and return to Earth, how do you launch a rocket from the balloon city and return to orbit? How do visitors or pioneers deorbit and land at the floating city? If there aren't materials to effect a repair, how long until it sinks down into the hellzo…

> such a way that your inflatable balloon city comes to a gentle stop, 30 miles up, and just floats there? Literally how floating works. > Worse still, when people need to leave and return to Earth, how do you launch a rocket from the balloon city and return to orbit? By launching your rocket from the ballon city and returning to orbit. (I'm struggling to see the novel problem.) > Where are materials manufactured for…

I'm sure we can figure out stuff, but I guess my point is, why would we do that at all?

How fucked up Earth needs to be than living on a floating oil platform above Venus is better? The point is already hard to make for the Moon or Mars.

Re: Why is Venus hell and Earth an Eden?

#182

Earth's internal heat regulation is such an underrated hero in the climate story. Half of Earth’s heat comes from internal sources, constantly driving plate tectonics and helping regulate CO₂. Venus lacks that it’s like a pressure cooker with no release valve.

How does Earth's internal heat regulate CO2?

Tectonic and volcanic activity release CO2 into the atmosphere. They comprise a major part of Earth's carbon cycle. Over time, carbon would be depleted from the outer lithosphere without this replenishment, and one of the mechanisms by which the Earth ultimately becomes unsuitable for life is a slowing of the tectonic cycle and depletion of said carbon.

This point is addressed (briefly) in TFA:

If or when Earth’s large-scale subduction shuts off in about 3.5 billion years, kneecapping the planet’s ability to bury carbon...

See also:

"Evolution of Earth’s tectonic carbon conveyor belt" (2022)

Concealed deep beneath the oceans is a carbon conveyor belt, propelled by plate tectonics. Our understanding of its modern functioning is underpinned by direct observations, but its variability through time has been poorly quantified. Here we reconstruct oceanic plate carbon reservoirs and track the fate of subducted carbon using thermodynamic modelling....

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-04420-x>

"How plate tectonics has maintained Earth's 'Goldilocks' climate" (26 May 2022)

(Popular article based on the same research.)

"Timeline of the Far Future"

See "The Sun's increasing luminosity begins to disrupt the carbonate–silicate cycle..." ~500 to 600 my.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_far_future>

This is somewhat speculative, and the precise nature / timing of carbon collapse may differ. But what strikes me is that the various pathways by which Earth exits its Goldilocks state are numerous and comparatively soon on a geological timescale. We're far nearer the evening of Earth's day than its morning, by multiple such measures.

Re: Why is Venus hell and Earth an Eden?

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was just rereading - it was the radioactivity and the large natural satellite that was unique in his universe. Tides are interesting because once you have life in the oceans, it's a kind of forcing function to adapt to land conditions

Forcing function + making a stretch of land which is neither dry nor enterily wet. A gradient. If there are no tides the leap life has to make is much bigger.

Fascinating

Re: Why is Venus hell and Earth an Eden?

#184
post #41

Russian missions to Venus IMO are some of the coolest missions. That's some brave stuff to try to pull off.

can you apply 'brave' to unmanned missions? challenging, yes.

Economically brave. Imagine building the most advanced and expensive piece of technology your society ever created, with small margins of success and the knowledge it'll last less than an hour before imploding upon itself.

And then trying again 16 times.

(I've just learned there are plans to try one more time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venera-17)

Re: Why is Venus hell and Earth an Eden?

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> such a way that your inflatable balloon city comes to a gentle stop, 30 miles up, and just floats there? Literally how floating works. > Worse still, when people need to leave and return to Earth, how do you launch a rocket from the balloon city and return to orbit? By launching your rocket from the ballon city and returning to orbit. (I'm struggling to see the novel problem.) > Where are materials manufactured for…

I'm sure we can figure out stuff, but I guess my point is, why would we do that at all? How fucked up Earth needs to be than living on a floating oil platform above Venus is better? The point is already hard to make for the Moon or Mars.

> why would we do that at all?

This question is one of a whole genre of "why" questions that come from supposed pragmatists, but I can't help but think the existence of the question misses the entire point.

Luckily, one of the older questions of this genre was about why anyone would bother to climb Mount Everest, and ol' Mallory had such a good answer that I'll just paste the whole thing here:

> People ask me, 'What is the use of climbing Mount Everest?' and my answer must at once be, 'It is of no use.' There is not the slightest prospect of any gain whatsoever. Oh, we may learn a little about the behavior of the human body at high altitudes, and possibly medical men may turn our observation to some account for the purposes of aviation. But otherwise nothing will come of it. We shall not bring back a single bit of gold or silver, not a gem, nor any coal or iron.

> If you cannot understand that there is something in man which responds to the challenge of this mountain and goes out to meet it, that the struggle is the struggle of life itself upward and forever upward, then you won't see why we go. What we get from this adventure is just sheer joy. And joy is, after all, the end of life. We do not live to eat and make money. We eat and make money to be able to live. That is what life means and what life is for.

Of course, with Venus, there's the joy of exploration and also tons of profits and learning to be had. For example, we could cover the entire planet in giant ads. Think of the CPMs you'd get as people looked out the window on their way to Mercury!

Re: Why is Venus hell and Earth an Eden?

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you deorbit Venus is such a way that your inflatable balloon city comes to a gentle stop, 30 miles up, and just floats there? Worse still, when people need to leave and return to Earth, how do you launch a rocket from the balloon city and return to orbit? How do visitors or pioneers deorbit and land at the floating city? If there aren't materials to effect a repair, how long until it sinks down into the hellzo…

> such a way that your inflatable balloon city comes to a gentle stop, 30 miles up, and just floats there? Literally how floating works. > Worse still, when people need to leave and return to Earth, how do you launch a rocket from the balloon city and return to orbit? By launching your rocket from the ballon city and returning to orbit. (I'm struggling to see the novel problem.) > Where are materials manufactured for…

>By launching your rocket from the ballon city and returning to orbit. (I'm struggling to see the novel problem.)

I believe they are having trouble envisioning how you would launch rockets from a balloon city without disturbing the equilibrium of the balloon city because it is assumed that rockets thrusting down with great force would damage the balloon city in a way it would not easily recuperate from.

I also find the idea difficult to understand, but assume that is because it is in an area I know nothing about and the problems that I think sound bad are actually totally solvable engineering problems otherwise it would not be have been suggested as a solution by engineers expert in that area.

on edit: changed rocks to rockets

Re: Why is Venus hell and Earth an Eden?

#187
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, first everything rusted, and then the excess oxygen collected in the atmosphere. Many of our iron ore deposits we still mine today are from that rusting. (That iron used to be mostly dissolved in the oceans.)

And the concentration into BIFs, banded iron formations, was all but certainly the result of biological activity. Our present technology based on iron and steel owes itself to early life on Earth, from 1.6 to as much as 4 billion years ago. As with petroleum and coal-bed formation, a process unlikely to repeat in Earth's future. Iron ores are abundant, but still a finite resource. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banded…

>Iron ores are abundant, but still a finite resource.

The iron doesn't go anywhere (ok, except for the iron making up our space probes). It is infinitely recyclable.

Re: Why is Venus hell and Earth an Eden?

#188
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of reasons for this. The Moon is a complete hell hole - 2 week long nights, night time temperatures that drop to around -200f, daytime temperatures in excess of 250f, extremely low gravity (to the point that one might expect a higher impact of the countless health consequences of 0g exposure on humans), minimal material resources and so on. There is also no atmosphere at all which complicates landing, means even…

> Lots of reasons for this. The Moon is a complete hell hole - 2 week long nights, night time temperatures that drop to around -200f, daytime temperatures in excess of 250f, extremely low gravity (to the point that one might expect a higher impact of the countless health consequences of 0g exposure on humans), minimal material resources and so on. Dig a bit, and temperatures even out. Same as on Mercury. About the li…

With radical ideas it's likely that anywhere can become habitable - there have even been ideas to create floating cities in the thick atmosphere of Venus. But places that require esoteric and ever more complex solutions are obviously less desirable than those that don't. And Mars is 100% 'easy mode' in terms of our first colonization outside of Earth.

Re: Why is Venus hell and Earth an Eden?

#189
post #42

The funny thing is that an oxygen-rich environment is a hell-hole! Oxygen is insanely reactive and will corrode anything. Even early life on earth found oxygen toxic. It was released as a waste product by early life and they were so successful that all that oxygen accumulated resulting in the Great Oxidation Event ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Oxidation_Event ). That likely resulted in many species going exti…

I hope humans are like Cyanobacteria in that in destroying the environment we create the substrate for something grander.

I fear that

Re: Why is Venus hell and Earth an Eden?

#190
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By launching your rocket from the ballon city and returning to orbit. (I'm struggling to see the novel problem.) I think Newton’s third law may cause trouble-but I’m no physicist.

> I think Newton’s third law may cause trouble No more than for a floating platform on the ocean. (Or frankly any sea or airborne firing platform.) If your launch mass is a significant fraction of station mass, and you can't counterweight, you could float it off to the side and then have the baloon detach when its engines fire. But none of this is in even the top thousand problems that come with colonising Venus.

Floating on a liquid surface is markedly different from floating within a fluid (liquid or gaseous).

To float on a liquid, one merely needs to maintain a lower average density within the vessel than the surrounding liquid. Assuming a largely hollow vessel (as with a ship or barge), it's possible to add or remove considerable payload without losing stable flotation characteristics as the draft of the vessel automatically compensates for the variation, displacing more or less liquid, and maintaining equilibrium.

To float in a fluid, one must maintain precise neutral buoyancy, which is an entirely different animal. As pressure varies with depth or altitude, the tendency is for a vessel to contract as it sinks and expand as it rises, leading to a runaway buoyancy shift (increasingly negative with depth, increasingly positive with height). Many military submarines operate at comparatively shallow depths, often only slightly more than their overall length* (for larger submarines), given both the immense pressures of even modest ocean depths (a few hundred metres), and the compounding nature and risks of runaway buoyancy loss.

Plans for cargo airships face corresponding problems in that when offloading cargo or passengers it is necessary to vent or otherwise scavenge lifting gas (the expense and/or challenges of either venting or compressing helium are great), or to onboard a corresponding mass of ballast. Where suitable water is plentiful the latter is fairly viable, but there are many applications proposed for cargo airships which suggest transport of heavy cargos sites with limited capabilities for same (no facilities, deserts, salt- or otherwise-contaminated water which might play poorly with buoyancy-compensation systems aboard the airship).

Rocket launch from an inhabited floating atmospheric platform would require accumulation of large stores of fuel (the Tsiolkovsky rocket equation also works against you), as well as presenting various risks associated with enormous barely-contained explosions (should you be lucky). The risks are immense, and hand-waving them away is disingenuous to the extreme.

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