what's the state of graalpy these days?
Java 25 officially released
181–190 of 260 posts
Re: Java 25 officially released
#182Earlier quoted context omitted.
I have never understood complaints about language constructs that don't make sense without an IDE. You have an IDE, it is where you are viewing the code. People that don't have an IDE are causing their own problems and should stop. People viewing the code on GitHub are not really analyzing it at the level that requires finely tracing through references usually and the terseness drastically outweighs the occasional an…
> You have an IDE No, I don't. For some reason there exists a group of programmers that refuse to acknowledge use cases like "let me write a small program in nano over SSH" or "let me change one hardcoded variable and recompile the project and never touch its source code again". If your code is unreadable without IDE, it means that either IDE should be shipped with the compiler because it's an essential part of the l…
> use cases like "let me write a small program in nano over SSH" or "let me change one hardcoded variable and recompile the project and never touch its source code again".
1. This is an infinitesimally small use case
2. Often those same programmers somehow are completely fine using C++ or Rust
3. Even more often those same programmers deny the usefulness of IDEs just because they need those use cases once every 10 years or so, and keep using subpar tools
Re: Java 25 officially released
#183More new programs should be written in Java/on the JVM. Most of the reasons Java dropped out of popularity no longer apply, and at this point it is an incredibly stable and mature ecosystem. I can come back to a Clojure program I wrote ten years ago and it runs great , meanwhile a TypeScript program I write 6 months ago requires a bunch of updating and cleanup.
I've been trying Java recently with IntelliJ and it's been funny watching Java's evolution from the IDE's suggestions. In Java a lot of code looks like this void foo(Bar bar); where Bar is an interface, and in many cases it only has one single method, so it looks like a callback that must be wrapped inside a class. Fortunately, Java lets you create anonymous classes to use these methods. void foo(new Bar { @override…
Java is really fast: https://github.com/gunnarmorling/1brc
Re: Java 25 officially released
#184Earlier quoted context omitted.
Oracle makes me too uneasy. Can I use Java without the worry of incurring Oracle's wrath? Maybe, if I make sure I use openjdk/jump through some hoops I'll be fine. Or, I could just use any other language and not have that worry looming over me. C# is right there if I want a java-like experience without the anxiety of Oracle breaking my kneecaps. I don't know how to use java and not violate one of Oracle's EULAs. I co…
My semi-conspiracy theory is that the success of Rust is partially due to BigTech companies searching for a "legally-safe" alternative to Java. The multi-year Google vs Oracle lawsuit put the likes of Amazon and Facebook to unease. And meanwhile there was this safe and performant language with no strings attached under a nice Apache license. They quickly made a Foundation around it as a 501(c)(6) - trade association,…
I'm not sure where things fall on your timeline, but in case you missed it, Amazon has their own Java distribution called Corretto. It was first publicly released in 2018:
Re: Java 25 officially released
#185More new programs should be written in Java/on the JVM. Most of the reasons Java dropped out of popularity no longer apply, and at this point it is an incredibly stable and mature ecosystem. I can come back to a Clojure program I wrote ten years ago and it runs great , meanwhile a TypeScript program I write 6 months ago requires a bunch of updating and cleanup.
Java's biggest risk towards continued adoption, by far, is the culture surrounding it - old Java programmers and old Java programs continue to be needlessly verbose, even if the language now has the tools (pretty much) to be as terse as other popular, modern languages. It's an uphill battle, but it might just climb the hill because it's still such a behemoth.
It all failed when .stream() appeared. Why make people use .stream() for functional programming, plus streams aren’t even reusable, I almost wish they invented a new operator based on an exotic UTF-8 character than those 9 extra characters. Fonts should have a ligature for .stream().
And now let’s talk about .collect(toList())…
And records which look like ugly beans…
Java is the land of the verbose. But it can probably be solved with 9 extra characters on every line.
Re: Java 25 officially released
#186Java has been such an amazingly solid technological foundation... and for a long, long time! It may not be the most sexy language but it's been a stable one. We have applications created with Java 1.4 running happily on Java 21 LTS and expect to upgrade to this latest LTS (Java 25) soon. Java for the win!
I wonder where Java would be today without superb tooling and smart student programs from JetBrains.
The Java world had plenty of student programs without Jet Brains. There is even a student-focused IDE, BlueJ, with plenty of visual representations to help people new to programming get their bearings - and this existed since 1999.
Re: Java 25 officially released
#187What is the current situation of using Java (from legal standpoint)? In open source and in commercial setting? Oracle has a lot of fantastic technology locked up in Java (things like Truffle), how reasonable it is for new projects?
Truffle is not part of OpenJDK. It's a separate project and licensed under the Universal Permissive License: https://github.com/oracle/graal/tree/master/truffle.
The UPL is an OSI-approved open source license. It shouldn't be a problem to use in any setting, but you should check with your legal team to see what licenses are approved.
Re: Java 25 officially released
#188More new programs should be written in Java/on the JVM. Most of the reasons Java dropped out of popularity no longer apply, and at this point it is an incredibly stable and mature ecosystem. I can come back to a Clojure program I wrote ten years ago and it runs great , meanwhile a TypeScript program I write 6 months ago requires a bunch of updating and cleanup.
After working with it for over 20 years, I think it's time has come and gone and that it's not the most efficient way to build enterprise applications anymore. You're lucky that Clojure program still works on the newer JVM because many of the applications I worked on, which were very large, could not be migrated to newer versions of Java. In fact, that experience repeated several times for me. I barely ever worked on…
We built an app in Java 8 a few years ago and are updating it for each LTS version, currently 21. Except for a few issues like the renaming of Javax packages to Jakarta it was pretty smooth so far.
Re: Java 25 officially released
#189Earlier quoted context omitted.
Licensing for OpenJDK is non trivial. Look at the large table and various bullet points Oracle had to make to tell you the license. https://www.oracle.com/java/technologies/javase/jdk-faqs.htm... (open the first dropdown on their FAQ page to open up their "licensing matrix") This is a mess, and is the license going to change again while I'm locked in the java ecosystem? Edit: It looks like the openjdk is consistently…
Licensing for OpenJDK is trivial (GPLv2+Classpath). Just like gcc/g++ and its runtime library exception. Licensing for Oracle JDK is more complicated. This is the one where you can use it for free, but after the next LTS you either have to move to the LTS or pay for updates. There's no reason to use Oracle JDK unless you want to pay for support from Oracle, or if your applications specifically require Oracle JDK. Ora…
What is even the benefit to using Oracle JDK at this point? Years ago, I saw that some jetbrains IDEs said to use it instead of openJDK, but I haven't seen anything else like that.
Re: Java 25 officially released
#190Crazy that it took this long to allow parameter validation and transformation before calling super in the constructor. That was something that always bothered me because it felt so counterintuitive.
Wasn't that possible since java 22?