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AI coding

geohot.github.io

181–190 of 299 posts

Re: AI coding

#181
post #173
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suggesting I restructure my code base to work better with a non-deterministic black box feels like an instance of Conway’s law[1] that should be avoided. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway%27s_law

You’re free to avoid it but maybe your competition will do it and may outpace you because of it. Conways law just states that architecture follows organizational structure so it’s only to be expected that ai generated software has an ai influenced architecture.

Yes, I think that’s the other position. But my bet is that significant software projects built today on today’s LLMs will be outpaced by teams in the future who avoided delegating that complexity to them. It’s a bet, but perhaps it’s wrong.

Re: AI coding

#182
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, unfortunately the boring parts are what junior devs used to do so the senior devs could work on the good stuff. Now that AI is doing the boring stuff nobody has to hire those pesky jr developers anymore. Yay? The problem is that junior developers are what we make senior developers with— so in 15 years, this is going to be yet another thing that the US used to be really good at, but is no longer capable of doing,…

> The problem is that junior developers are what we make senior developers with— so in 15 years In 15 years senior developers will not be needed as well. Anyway no company is obliged to worry about 15 years timescale

And nobody is obligated to make sure they aren’t walking off of a cliff.

Most people don’t share your confidence that we will replace senior engineers and I’d gobsmacked if we could. Just like the magical ‘automation’ can’t replace the people that actually make the physical things that the machines use to do their jobs, or fix the machines, no matter how good it gets. But the quantitatively-minded MBAs just kept kicking the can down the road and assumed it was someone else’s problem that the end of the road was approaching. It wasn’t their problem that there would be a problem in 30 years, and then it wasn’t their problem when it was 10 years, and now that we’re standing at the edge of a cliff, they’re realizing that it’s everybody’s problem and it’s going to be a hell of a lot more painful than if they’d had an extremely modest amount of foresight.

Now, US manufacturers are realizing that all of their skilled laborers are retiring or dying, and there isn’t enough time to transfer the more complex knowledge sets, like Tool and Die making, to a new set of apprentices. Many of these jobs are critical not only to national security, but also our country’s GDP because the things we do actually make are very useful, very specialized, and very expensive. Outsourcing jobs like making parts for fighter jets is really something we don’t want shipped overseas unless we want to see those parts pop up on aliexpress. If nobody is responsible for it and nobody wants to fund the government to fix it, but it is a real problem, it doesn’t take a genius to see the disconnect there.

Re: AI coding

#183
post #166
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've seen plenty of people who hacked the ps3 and iphone as teenagers and created a low level system analysis tool for doing such system hacks? You've seen plenty of people writing self driving car software a decade ago? Why did you write this when you know nothing?

I actually have seen plenty of people that could have done something like this, but did not because they simply never tried. Being daring by itself is a skill, but we're talking raw technical ability here. I've actually seen another developer that was probably in the same category write his own self-driving software. It kind of worked, but couldn't have ever been production ready, so it was just an exercise in flexin…

So, if I understand correctly, you've seen plenty of people that didn't do what he did? This was not a compelling argument.

Re: AI coding

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So much of what we write is absolutely low-skill and low-impact, but necessary and labor-intensive. Most of it is so basic and boilerplate you really can't look at it and know if it was machine- or human-generated. Is it really? Or is it a refusal to do actual software engineering, letting the machine taking care of it (deterministically) and moving up the ladder in terms of abstraction. I've seen people describing…

If you're not able to review what it generates, you shouldn't be using it (and arguably are the wrong person to be doing the boilerplate work to begin with) Put differently, I go back to my original comment, where AI is essentially a junior/mid dev that you can express what needs to be done with enough detail. In either case, AI or dev, you'd review and/or verify it. > Or is it a refusal to do actual software enginee…

> One could say the same of installing packages in most modern programming languages instead of writing the code from first principles.

I disagree, because libraries define an interface with (ideally) precise, reproducible semantics, that you make use of. They provide exactly what the grandparent is saying, namely a formal abstraction. When you have the choice between a library and an LLM, requiring equal effort, the library is clearly preferable.

When an LLM is more time-efficient at a given coding task, it can be taken as an indication of a lack of a suitable library, tooling, or other abstraction for the use case.

Re: AI coding

#185
post #70

This is a more extreme example of the general hacker news group think about AI. Geohot is easily a 99.999 percentile developer, and yet he can’t seem to reconcile that the other 99.999 percent are doing something much more basic than he can ever comprehend. It’s some kind of expert paradox, if everyone was as smart and capable as the experts, then they wouldn’t be experts. I have come across many developers that beha…

> the general hacker news group think about AI

I’m surprised to see this. From my perspective, reading comments and seeing which posts rise to the top, HN as a whole seems pretty bullish on the tech as whole…

Re: AI coding

#186
post #165

I'm almost 50, and have been writing code professionally since the late 90s. I can pretty much see projects in my head, and know exactly what to build. I also get paid pretty well for what I do. You'd think I'd be the prototype for anti-AI. I'm not. I can build anything, but often struggle with getting bogged down with all the basic work. I love AI for speed running through all the boring stuff and getting to the goo…

100% agree. I am interested in seeing how this will change how I work. I'm finding that I'm now more concerned with how I can keep the AI busy and how I can keep the quality of outputs high. I believe it has a lot to do with how my projects are structured and documented. There are also some menial issues (e.g. structuring projects to avoid merge conflicts becoming bottlenecks) I expect that in a year my relationship…

An important skill for software developers is the ability to reason about what the effects of their coce will be, over all possible conditions and inputs, as opposed to trial and error limited to specific inputs, or (as is the case with non-deterministic LLMs) limited to single executions. This skill is independent of whether you are coding in assembly or are using higher-level languages and tooling. Using LLMs exactly doesn’t train that skill, because the effective unpredictability of their results largely prevents any but the most vague logical reasoning about the connection between the prompt and the specific output.

Re: AI coding

#187
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me rephrase. I know brilliant people who took up knitting to keep their hands busy while they think over their difficult problems. But that only works if you can knit in your work hours. Sadly, despite clearly improving the productivity of these people, this is a fireable offense in many jobs. I'm not saying that the only way to think through a hard problem is to work on boilerplate. If you are in a workplace whe…

I don't disagree, but I find a better use of my time is writing. Not code, but essentially a work journal. It's not big thoughts, it's bullet points. It's not documentation, but more of a open mind map: what's been done, what needs to be done, questions that inevitably pop up, etc. I use Obsidian for this, but if I write much more than what would go on a few post-it notes, it's too much.

Writing and coding use different parts of the brain. Writing is for creating a model to communicate about human things, and coding is for creating a model for communicating about computer things.

Re: AI coding

#188
I feel like many opinion pieces on AI coding are written from the perspective of highly experienced software engineers, often from a kind of ivory tower. (even that study they cite was based on “16 experienced open-source developers.”)

But for people who aren’t seasoned coders, these tools are incredibly valuable. I have some coding experience myself, but it’s never been my profession (I’m a visual artist). Now, I can accomplish in an afternoon what would otherwise take me days. Two months ago I left my job to work solo on my video game, and even though my budget is limited, I still make sure to keep Claude and ChatGPT. Also, being able to write something on my phone at 1 a.m. when I can’t sleep, send it to Codex, and then test it first thing in the morning at my computer feels pretty magical. It also takes away the worry of “what if this isn’t the best way to do it?” since refactoring parts of my codebase is now so easy. It helps not just with writing code, but also with removing the fear that might otherwise keep me from sitting down and getting the work done.

That said, I understand that much of the criticism is really aimed at the marketing hype around these tools and the broader “this will replace the engineers at your company” narrative.

Re: AI coding

#189

I'm almost 50, and have been writing code professionally since the late 90s. I can pretty much see projects in my head, and know exactly what to build. I also get paid pretty well for what I do. You'd think I'd be the prototype for anti-AI. I'm not. I can build anything, but often struggle with getting bogged down with all the basic work. I love AI for speed running through all the boring stuff and getting to the goo…

> developer somewhere between junior and mid-level Why the insistence on anthropomorphizing what is just a tool? It has no agency, does not 'think' in any meaningful manner, it is just pattern matching on a vast corpus of training data. That's not to say it can't be very useful - as you seem to have found - but it is still just a tool.

This isn’t necessarily anthropomorphizing, as from a company’s point of view, or uncharitably even from a tech leads point of view, developers are also just tools. The point being made is that LLMs (supposedly) fulfill those developer roles.

Re: AI coding

#190

I started fully coding with Claude Code. It's not just vibe coding, but rather AI-assisted coding. I've noticed there's a considerable decrease in my understanding of the whole codebase, even though I'm the only one who has been coding this codebase for 2 years. I'm struggling to answer my colleagues' questions. I am not defending we should drop AI, but we should really measure its effects and take actions accordingl…

I’m experiencing something similar. We have a codebase of about 150k lines of backend code. On one hand, I feel significantly more productive - perhaps 400% more efficient when it comes to actually writing code. I can iterate on the same feature multiple times, refining it until it’s perfect. However, the challenge has shifted to code review. I now spend the vast majority of my time reading code rather than writing i…

> Many developers are satisfied once the code simply works.

In the general case, the only way to convince oneself that the code truly works is to reason through it, as testing only tests particular data points for particular properties. Hence, “simply works” is more like “appears to work for the cases I tried out”.

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