Live data from Hacker News

The worst possible antitrust outcome

pluralistic.net

181–190 of 219 posts

Re: The worst possible antitrust outcome

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People like to talk about politically tyranny, but forgot about the tyranny of capitalism. We've financialized servitude is all.

Many people decry the tyranny of capitalism, but this site tends to lean into it and defend it at every turn because capitalism is painted as the tide that lifts all boats, despite the bodies on the ocean floor. Some believe, wholeheartedly that a few regulations is all that is needed to establish a fair free market, despite evidence to the contrary. ANY niche market where a world-spanning monopoly can be established…

Capitalism is not the same thing as a free market. A free market means all transactions are voluntary. That's how wealth gets built--by voluntary cooperation among productive people through specialization and trade.

Capitalism is just the view that one should try to accumulate more capital, by hook or by crook. And there are lots of ways to do that that don't involve any kind of productive work, much less building wealth through cooperation, specialization, and trade. Buying government favors, for example, which is how most big-time "capitalists" in US history did it (for example, the railroad barons who got the government to give them exclusive access to key routes). Today they do it by buying regulations that favor them.

Re: The worst possible antitrust outcome

#182
post #137
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> unregulated market A free market is not unregulated. It's regulated by the voluntary choices of all market participants. The alternative is to have the market regulated by those who aren't participants--i.e., who have no skin in the game and who suffer no consequences if the regulations are bad. That's basically the situation we have now. Anyone who thinks that's a good thing isn't living on the same planet as I am…

> It's regulated by the voluntary choices of all market participants. So, what do you think would happen when the biggest market participant makes a choice incompatible with choices of the smaller participants? I can tell you - the biggest player would win. Or it would slowly destroy competitors (slowly mean just a few years), and then start imposing it's rules. Basically any free market would turn to feudalism, whic…

> because humans are shit at governing, the only viable way (until someone invents something new) is external control.

No, that's even worse, because, as you admit, humans are shit at governing--and the "external control" is just more humans being shit at governing, but with a much bigger negative impact because the scope of their shitty governing covers many more people.

Advocates of free markets, like me, don't advocate them because we think they solve all problems. We advocate them because, given the fact that humans are shit at governing, free markets are the least worst of the alternatives open to us. Big market players who still have to make money through voluntary transactions do less damage than governments run by humans who are shit at governing. That's the lesson of human history. Unfortunately most of us still haven't learned it, and continue to cling to the foolish belief that somehow calling a bunch of humans a "government" magically makes them no longer shit at governing. It doesn't.

Re: The worst possible antitrust outcome

#183
post #137
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> unregulated market A free market is not unregulated. It's regulated by the voluntary choices of all market participants. The alternative is to have the market regulated by those who aren't participants--i.e., who have no skin in the game and who suffer no consequences if the regulations are bad. That's basically the situation we have now. Anyone who thinks that's a good thing isn't living on the same planet as I am…

> It's regulated by the voluntary choices of all market participants. So, what do you think would happen when the biggest market participant makes a choice incompatible with choices of the smaller participants? I can tell you - the biggest player would win. Or it would slowly destroy competitors (slowly mean just a few years), and then start imposing it's rules. Basically any free market would turn to feudalism, whic…

> And do you know why that happened? Because there was no control

Nonsense. It was because the government had control, and could force people to accept that it was giving special privileges to certain players. For example, the railroad barons in the late 19th century US who got the government to give them exclusive access to key routes. The people had no choice about accepting that. In a free market, there would have been competition, and that would have ended up resulting in better service. How do we know that? Because that's what happened until the government stepped in and gave special privileges to certain players.

In other words, your view is exactly backwards to what has actually happened.

Re: The worst possible antitrust outcome

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the reason most governments reduced the rate was because economists argued that the higher rate reduces economic activity so much that total tax revenue (collected by the government) is actually higher at the reduced rate. Look up the "Laffer curve".

But taxes don't exist as an income flow, but to give incentives. Taxes exist to reduce economic activity for goods where you want that.

That's interesting because governments often act and talk like like their goal is to maximize revenue from taxes :)

Re: The worst possible antitrust outcome

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basically it should be illegal per se but since the 70's the Court has really limited how they apply that and so courts generally prefer to do a competitive analysis/quick look first. In this case, the argument might be that since the cost to consumer doesn't increase, it isn't a naked price fix so it's not per se illegal. As I learned it, since BMI & ASCAP v. CBS, in 1979, it's essentially been that the per se rule…

The current state of antitrust law expands far beyond Bork and conservatives. I’d be surprised if any of the top antitrust scholars are conservatives: https://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leiter/2021/10/10-most-c...

I'm not saying current political conservatives are the cause, Bork was hugely influential beyond traditional conservative circles, particularly in antitrust law.

If you read Bork's work, especially The Antitrust Paradox, and if you study the caselaw prior to and post 1970's, you'll see a stark difference.

It was really a conservative idea at that point but I'd say it's more neoliberal, which has a strong backing in the democratic party and has for decades, beginning with Carter.

The per se analysis and application, particularly, is just massively different from the pre-Bork era. He's the single largest reason that the three main elements of cost, quality, and quantity as a standard for antitrust analysis has eventually boiled down almost entirely to cost, partially because it's so much easier to measure but also because he advocated for it as a mechanism to measure business efficiency.

One of the big problems of this is the change in fundamentals since Bork was writing in the 70's, particularly with union membership declining so heavily. He was countering a very strong and powerful union system and factored that into his analysis, and we just don't have that in the private sector any longer.

I've been working on a paper for a while about theoretically adding in wage and labor market analysis into the mix, particularly with monopoly and monopsony situations, but it's kinda stalled since I've been clerking.

Honestly, read the guy's book and read some cases if you're interested. You'll see it fairly quickly.

Re: The worst possible antitrust outcome

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These firms got no "special privilege " from government, did they? They did and still do. They spend millions lobbying the government to make it harder for outsiders to break into their industries.

So we're back to square one then, and came to agree on the original premise: Money is a unit of exchange that exists to compel action.

In the same way that computers are a device that exists to search Google, sure.

Re: The worst possible antitrust outcome

#187
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's not. One example definition of tax: a charge usually of money collected by the government from people or businesses for public use. A duty is a type of tax.

> a charge usually of money collected by the government from people or businesses for public use. Yes and what makes it a tax is the intention. If it is to regulate a market to be more free, it's a tax, otherwise it's a duty.

I'm not going to keep going back and forth about this, but wanted to let you know you are 100% wrong in case you're not a native English speaker or something.

Please reference any dictionary since you don't believe me.

Re: The worst possible antitrust outcome

#188
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a charge usually of money collected by the government from people or businesses for public use. Yes and what makes it a tax is the intention. If it is to regulate a market to be more free, it's a tax, otherwise it's a duty.

I'm not going to keep going back and forth about this, but wanted to let you know you are 100% wrong in case you're not a native English speaker or something. Please reference any dictionary since you don't believe me.

Ok, that might be the case. But these are the words my dictionary gave me. What do you think are the right words for stuff that e.g. needs to be payed to the government a) to regulate the market or b) to provide an income to the government?

Re: The worst possible antitrust outcome

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But taxes don't exist as an income flow, but to give incentives. Taxes exist to reduce economic activity for goods where you want that.

That's interesting because governments often act and talk like like their goal is to maximize revenue from taxes :)

Yeah, and in my opinion they are completely deranged. Governments are the source and guarantor for money. They create money for the economy to control, as a proxy for resources. However for them it's not a proxy, they need to deal with the messy reality of resources, since they are setting up the rules and framework for their economy, i.e. they govern them.

The government still needs to raise money for e.g. funding the roads. This is not, because the government wouldn't be able to direct the resources of the economy towards this goal otherwise, but because the costs of that goal should be part of the beneficiaries of that goal. This should prevent inefficient pursue of goals.

For example when you get too less money for roads, it can be because all the foreigners use it for transit, but don't actually fund it, meaning the government subsidizes another governments economy, or because too less people drive on your roads/ people don't care much for the roads, so maybe you are building too much of them. When on the other hand you have to much money for roads, then maybe you are not building enough roads.

However this is not the only measure, as roads also create induced demand/economic activities, i.e. you need to put up roads to foster specific activities, before you see the demand. In other words it's complicated and you need to be an expert in the field you are governing and governing itself.

But while money on its own is (nearly) free for a government, once you have handed it out it isn't free anymore, since it now represents resources, that are also restricted for the government. This means that it still makes sense to be frugal with money, just not for money that was just created by it, but with money that comes to the government for the second time, and is now to be spent again, since this already is a proxy for specific resources.

> governments often act and talk like like their goal is to maximize revenue

I think this often comes from business people who promote (themselves) to government, but don't got the memo, that they aren't working for a company anymore, but instead decide on the framework for companies to thrive or not.

Politics, literally the art to govern [a city], is really the art of creating hard rules that still don't prescribe anything but instead control the famous invisible hand of a free market towards the right behaviour.

Re: The worst possible antitrust outcome

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current state of antitrust law expands far beyond Bork and conservatives. I’d be surprised if any of the top antitrust scholars are conservatives: https://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leiter/2021/10/10-most-c...

I'm not saying current political conservatives are the cause, Bork was hugely influential beyond traditional conservative circles, particularly in antitrust law. If you read Bork's work, especially The Antitrust Paradox, and if you study the caselaw prior to and post 1970's, you'll see a stark difference. It was really a conservative idea at that point but I'd say it's more neoliberal, which has a strong backing in t…

I think we basically agree. My point is that his ideas gained so much traction because neoliberalism was ascendant during this period. Law & economics started in the 1960s, and as you note, by Carter it had widely reshaped regulatory law in general.
Post reply on HN