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Rick Falkvinge: Why free speech is harmed by the ban on child porn

falkvinge.net

181–190 of 332 posts

Re: Rick Falkvinge: Why free speech is harmed by the ban on child porn

#181

Some reasonable points here, but I think there is one very solid argument in favor of making possesion of child porn illegal (and also explains the sense of applying strict liability here): if mere possession is illegal then demand is reduced. Effectively, the legislation aims to destroy the market for child porn thereby preventing abuse/exploitation of children. There's definitely room to debate whether illegalizing…

> if mere possession is illegal then demand is reduced.

Except that's not true. Previously in Sweden, production and distribution of child porn was illegal, while possession was legal. But ten years ago or so, through lobbying and some shrill "think of the children!" campaigns, our politicians decided to change it and make possession illegal. This actually required constitutional change, since the basic freedom of the press had to be changed.

And the change was made, even though a lot of professionals objected to it. Lawyers were upset, because they generally thought you shouldn't tamper with the constitution unless you had really good reasons to. The police were negative, because they couldn't see how it would help them catch more actual criminals. The prosecutors were negative since distribution and production are enough to catch the criminals you want to catch. And the journalists were against it for the reasons linked to in the article. But think of the children! And so the law was changed.

Now, 10 years afterwards, the result of the change is exactly as the professionals predicted: The law change hasn't done anything. There's no great reduction is child porn cases. The people they do catch are all guilty of distribution or production, possession is irrelevant. Journalists are pissed and more cautious of the subject. And there's been a few idiotic cases where people have been convicted even though its obvious they shouldn't have been. Like a manga critic who was reported by his pissed ex-wife, and when the police searched his place they could kinda see how two books (out of a huge collection) maybe depicted underage people, so they had to arrest him. I think he got acquitted after appealing though, it seems higher courts have a more sane view of the matter.

And then you have more common worries, for example what about digitizing old photo albums? I have photos of myself, one year old, bathing, naked. Maybe I should just burn that photo to be sure? What about taking digital pictures or movies of your own children, and they happen to be naked somewhere. Post to Facebook? Or oh shit, delete as fast as you can?

So, making possession illegal did not in any way change the situation for actual pedophiles distributing actual child porn. They're still as guilty as before, and still breaking the law as before, but regular people are affected by it, journalists are affected by it, and the copyright maximalists are using it to push their agenda. And that's a pretty strong argument for making possession legal again.

Re: Rick Falkvinge: Why free speech is harmed by the ban on child porn

#182

There's a lot of food for thought here, and important points. But in one area, the author completely glosses over a crucial distinction: > why is it only documentation of sex crimes against minors that are being banned in this way? The lawmen are perfectly fine with a video documenting how a teenager is being stabbed with a screwdriver in both eyes, then murdered. ... why is the ban just related to anything sexual, a…

Here's a proposal. Mere possession should be legal, as Falkvinge argues. What should be illegal is purchasing child porn. You might reply that it might be difficult to prove that money changed hands, particularly in this brave new Bitcoin world. Fine. Let's say that possession of images that are known to have been sold to anyone at any time constitutes prima facie circumstantial evidence that the person possessing th…

Why not criminalise only selling? If you criminalise buying, less people will buy it, therefore the sellers will be less visible. And you do want to catch the sellers, not the buyers.

I'm pretty sure peer pressure alone can regulate against people looking at child porn, no need to involve the police in it.

Re: Rick Falkvinge: Why free speech is harmed by the ban on child porn

#183
post #24

When I lived in Houston and was buying a house I used a website to look up sex offenders in the neighborhood. I remember seeing one guy who was in the sex offender database because when he was 19, he had sex with a 17 year old. It made me feel a little uncomfortable. It struck me because I was in my mid 20s and I think we were around the same age at the time. Something is amiss in a system that punishes him for life…

I'm sorry, I don't live in the US so maybe I don't really understand, but why do these websites even exist. If someone is a dangerous sex offender, he shouldn't even be in the streets. If not, then he committed the crime, did the time, why does he need to be punished for life?

If not, then he committed the crime, did the time, why does he need to be punished for life?

In fact, he didn't "do the time", because part of the punishiment is a life-long listing in the sex offender registries.

If you'd rather, you can think of it this way: sexual offenses in the US carry a mandatory life-sentence, with some of that sentence being time spent in jail.

Re: Rick Falkvinge: Why free speech is harmed by the ban on child porn

#184

There's a lot of food for thought here, and important points. But in one area, the author completely glosses over a crucial distinction: > why is it only documentation of sex crimes against minors that are being banned in this way? The lawmen are perfectly fine with a video documenting how a teenager is being stabbed with a screwdriver in both eyes, then murdered. ... why is the ban just related to anything sexual, a…

Falkvinge makes an excellent rebuttal to your point.

There IS a huge market for videos of violence. It's called the evening news, and they are all over that shit.

Re: Rick Falkvinge: Why free speech is harmed by the ban on child porn

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because, as TFA points out, it's very hard to distinguish the kinds of sharing. Sure, if you're seeding CP, that's clear cut, but sending erotic pictures to your girl/boyfriend is sharing too, and it's illegal if you're a minor.

Sexual relationships for minors is also illegal in most jurisdictions. Why do you need to allow minors to send erotic images of themselves when they're not allowed by law to engage in physical sexual activity?

Firstly, that's not exactly true. For example, the age of consent in 30 of the US states is 16 (as it is in many other countries), so many minors are in fact allowed to have sex (even with adults!) but still prohibited from sharing erotic pictures of themselves.

Secondly, that argument poses a false dilemma; the other option would be to change both laws.

Re: Rick Falkvinge: Why free speech is harmed by the ban on child porn

#186
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Protect the children" is a much, much broader issue than oppression for religious regions.

It is a symptom. The cause is religions - people who think they've got to impose their interpretation of morality (to which they themselves do not conform) on wide public. It is made clearly in the article that bad laws are lobbied by religious fundamentalists. Since religions have no value, I say clean it up.

> It is a symptom. The cause is religions - people who think they've got to impose their interpretation of morality (to which they themselves do not conform) on wide public.

Hold on here. It's mainly the right winger Christians who are co-opting laws into their own religion based law. And the statement is also just factually false: not every religion tries to force their rules on the country.

If you were to call me a label of belief, I'd be a pagan. Old Gods, magic, divination, and all that. So I'm trying to force (or any of those I know who practice) our laws on others? We don't have religious edicts or laws! Instead, people like my girlfriend was subbing in the local high school, until a fellow teacher saw her wear a pentagram outside of school. She was gone by the week.

If you read any of the "pagan" news, its articles how only until recently, a cross was put on the burial stone for deceased military members, regardless of religious affiliation. Or, how Gideon groups still pass out those bibles to elementary schools. Or even the cases of religions classes teaching christianity only, neglecting all other beliefs.

>It is made clearly in the article that bad laws are lobbied by religious fundamentalists. Since religions have no value, I say clean it up.

I agree with a part: Fundamentalists. Fundamentalists of any organisation are a poison. Christians are fine, fundies, no. Same with Islam, and Buddhism, and Hinduism, and Taoism, and Paganism, and all the other isms. You add fundie, and "Bad Shit Happens".

Re: Rick Falkvinge: Why free speech is harmed by the ban on child porn

#187

Some time ago, thanks to a tip on HN, I was listening to a interview with Stanley Kubrick recorded in the 1960's in New York. He's a genius in the opinion of many, myself included, so I was happy for the tip. This is what makes HN worth reading. In the interview, one of the films that was mentioned a few times was Lolita (1962). This is one Kubrick film I have never seen. So I did a little research on it. It's based…

> No one should have to watch this stuff. But even more important, no one should _want_ to watch this stuff. The question is: Why do people want to watch violence and murder?

People are morbid. People are curious. People want to see things that push the boundaries, that are rare, that few others have seen.

I think there's a really important analogy to be drawn between videos of this nature and child pornography. It shows that having the urge to watch an act occurring, and an urge to perform such an act in real life, are two wholly separate things.

It's not as though we consider everyone who has ever seen a depiction of someone being murdered — almost every single member of Western civilization if we include Hollywood depictions — as someone likely to murder people.

Re: Rick Falkvinge: Why free speech is harmed by the ban on child porn

#188

I don't agree that the only way to address these edge cases is to entirely repeal the laws rather than reform them. Technology changes, society changes, and the law adjusts. Sure I can imagine myself as an activist working against imprisonment of consensual (but teenage) couples as he describes, but never for outright acceptance of all child porn content.

> the law adjusts Not according to at least two of the US Supreme Court Justices. The US Constitution is not a "living document" to them, not interpretable according to the norms of the time.

I'm may be going out on a limb here, but the last time I read the US Constitution, I don't recall it saying anything for or against child pornography, so I don't think it'll be necessary to re-interpret the Constitution to update child porn laws.

Re: Rick Falkvinge: Why free speech is harmed by the ban on child porn

#189

There's a lot of food for thought here, and important points. But in one area, the author completely glosses over a crucial distinction: > why is it only documentation of sex crimes against minors that are being banned in this way? The lawmen are perfectly fine with a video documenting how a teenager is being stabbed with a screwdriver in both eyes, then murdered. ... why is the ban just related to anything sexual, a…

Isn't the easy answer virtual child porn? I really see no reason why this is also illegal except it makes people feel icky. This allows potential rapists to satisfy their desires without harming any actual children.

We should probably work on legalizing that, then. Right now we're putting people in jail for importing comic books.

Re: Rick Falkvinge: Why free speech is harmed by the ban on child porn

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question is why ? "It's ok to picture murdering your entire family over dinner with a fork, as long as you don't really do it". Not, it's not ok. Why would you want to accept and encourage behavior that is not sane?

"Why would you want to accept and encourage behavior that is not sane?" Because the evidence continues to stack up in staggering amounts that sexual preference is innate and out of our control. That attempting to suppress it without any outlet is a recipe for a miserable life, possibly leading to dangerous and violent outbursts for perceived injustice and oppression. Whether you like it or not, people are into kinky…

Do you have research to point to, wrt this?

Because the evidence continues to stack up in staggering amounts that sexual preference is innate and out of our control. That attempting to suppress it without any outlet is a recipe for a miserable life, possibly leading to dangerous and violent outbursts for perceived injustice and oppression.

There's a big jump from "sexual preference is innate" -- e.g., we can't use therapy to make gay boys straight (no, I'm not asking for references for that part!) to saying that preventing a child molester from viewing fake kiddie porn will make him violent (that's the part I strongly question...).

Yes, people are into kinky stuff, and I agree that someone sexually drawn to children can't just decide to flip an internal switch and be no longer drawn to them. But I'm keenly interested into what's the best way to work with a kink that's harmful to non-consensual others (like children).

There's little if any research available that sheds insight onto how best to handle it, AFAIK.

I do think I've read research that it's a bad idea to let people watch & roleplay detailed scenarios of whatever crime they risk committing, though -- it concretizes vague longings (however painful) into actual plans (that's a bad thing).

My personal best guess would be that we first need to recognize that pedophilic urges are like a condition that needs to be actively managed so that no one is ever harmed -- not hidden away until the sufferer loses control of themselves.

If pedophilic urges were more actively recognized & calmly discussed in society -- like urges to commit violence, which are more common but far more acceptable as well -- and people could seek help (cognitive behavioral therapy?) if they worried about losing control and doing harm, we might see actual harm to children vastly reduced.

Currently they absolutely can't seek help; they'll be turned into the police and all of their neighbors/family/coworkers will be questioned. So they're on their own.

I have an unpublished blog post on this that was spinning out of control, prompted by my childhood scoutmaster being charged with child molestation (many years later and unrelated to scouting activities, actually) and committing suicide -- one day I'll find a way to get it completed.

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