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New executive order puts all grants under political control

arstechnica.com

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Re: New executive order puts all grants under political control

#181

Post by russellbeattie »

ethbr1 wrote: post #158
russellbeattie wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "...would drastically shift power." What exactly do you think will change? The administration is already ignoring the law with impunity. Unless there's a big enough swing so that impeachment and conviction is a reality, Congress will have essentially zero impact. Around 40% of the country still supports the president unconditionally . They are truly ecstatic with what's happened so far. The other 60% are being gerr…

I know it's vogue to construct a view in which depression and inaction are the only logical conclusions, but that ain't our reality. > The administration is already ignoring the law with impunity Can you provide an example where they've ignored a Supreme Court ruling? And the histrionics around this are uniquely relative to modern norms. Look up the shenanigans around Marbury v Madison https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki…

I could respond in detail to each pedantic item, but you seem knowledgeable enough to know them already, so here's a summary: There's plenty of non-SCOTUS laws that have been ignored. The gerrymandering is being nationally coordinated. Comparing Trump to Hoover is farcical and you know it.

The word "histrionic" is what really got me though. We're well past the stage where anyone deeply cynical about the state of things and the foreseeable future can be accused of histrionics. And we're way beyond any previous historical analogies.

My whole point is that the damage to the country is permanent. Whether it'll eventually destroy the Union has yet to be determined.

Re: New executive order puts all grants under political control

#182

Post by ryandrake »

mathiaspoint wrote: post #176
Yizahi wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This ends USA, full stop. Not this particular executive order, but his orders in general. It's been half a year and that orange turd has completely overtaken USA legislative branch with this "economic emergency", while bobbleheads in the Congress just signed it away voluntarily. And now he is taking preliminary shots at the judicial branch, trying to eradicate judges who aren't bending the knee. All the while testing…

It may be that the Americans don't like what the USA has turned into and want it to end.

It looks like they're going to get their way, to everyone except the rich's detriment.

Re: New executive order puts all grants under political control

#183

Post by Yizahi »

doublerabbit wrote: post #171
sizzle wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What can we do about it?

General Strike. If everyone tomorrow just stopped working around the world, that would paint a pretty picture.

Strike in the Washington DC where people would not go home in the evening. Put up tents, tires, pavement and keep striking until it works. Also pick up 1 single most important item. Not Epstein, however satisfying that is to throw at MAGA their own comments. I think so called "economic emergency" which in completely unconstitutional should be such a topic and strike should continue until it is repelled. Secondary topic I think should be unconstitutional measure by the Congress, which they adopted in spring and which essentially blocks congressmen from voting on this so called "emergency". That shit how whole 2025 year is a single day, or whatever they have invented.

That is the only only way to stop dictatorship while it is still possible.

Re: New executive order puts all grants under political control

#184

Post by yibg »

russellbeattie wrote: post #55
ocschwar wrote: post #31

This ends science in the United States. You can't really enroll graduate students for a 5 year PHD project if their funding can be pulled at a moment's notice like this.

This year is definitely the beginning of the end for American scientific leadership. The damage being done is incalculable. The best and brightest simply aren't going to want to come to the U.S. for an uncertain future where they'll be harassed at the airport every trip and then defunded or deported at any time for "political" reasons (a.k.a. racism, bigotry, religion, ignorance and anti-intellectualism). Amazingly,…

Personally I'm not very confident even in the next free and fair election things will change materially. Trump is the public face but the reason he's in office and also has control of congress is because Americans voted that way. It's not very clear that if elections were held tomorrow, that the result would go any different.

Re: New executive order puts all grants under political control

#185

Post by 827a »

derbOac wrote: post #52
827a wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest reason is because we have a strategic multinational interest in remaining a leader in science. China (and other countries) will fund science. We have to as well, or we fall behind. Its national security. We also have a strategic interest in draining intelligent individuals from other countries and nationalizing them in ours, which science funding plays a major part in doing. One of the reasons why its com…

The current system is broken but nothing about this administration is aimed at helping fix its problems. With most actions, there's nothing being remedied, just an assertion of control. The action isn't tied to an improvement goal or a remedy with rationale. As Tao noted, in cases where a remedy for a wrong is mentioned, the remedies being proposed by the administration do far more harm to any ostensible victims than…

I agree that there is no reason to believe the current administration has any priority in fixing the situation, and its definitely reasonable to state that they're operating in bad faith, and that we have much bigger problems than this situation. However; continuing to pump taxpayer dollars and debt into an already enriched, broken system like this is on some level negligence.

UCLA paid their head football coach ~$6M/year. Will they ever decide to take any kind of money of that scale and fund Tao's research at IPAM? The reason you'll hear is "its ROI, a great football program generates revenue for the university" but the reality is: like 70% of University athletics programs are unprofitable, including UCLA's football program. Moreover: while I understand that universities have to operate like a business, their business goal must be "to make as much awesome education and research happen"; everything must serve that goal, and it doesn't today. I am extremely unconvinced that hyper-sized athletics programs and millionaire coaches further this goal, especially against the backdrop that they're tremendously and systemically unprofitable for everyone except the coaches, management, and the NCAA.

Re: New executive order puts all grants under political control

#186

Post by lossolo »

astrange wrote: post #134
themafia wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The jingoist dream of America is falling apart. It must seem, to some who are very dependent on it existing, as if the sky actually is falling. Perhaps it's just a good opportunity for them to study history that has been untouched by North American propaganda. Anyways, we have the Internet, I'm not sure it matters _where_ innovations are created anymore. It certainly does not seem to be stopping China on any level. A…

You're asking for sea shipping to stop working because naval piracy is going to come back. The "military industrial complex" isn't real and isn't a significant part of the economy (military spending as % US GDP has continually fallen over time), but the Navy patrolling the entire world's oceans for free has been real until now.

> You're asking for sea shipping to stop working because naval piracy is going to come back.

That's a huge exaggeration. Who would commit naval piracy in the current age? Somalia, with their little boats and AK-47s? China already has a bigger fleet than the US and can easily take on the burden of securing trade routes, since they are the biggest beneficiary.

Re: New executive order puts all grants under political control

#187

Post by qcnguy »

BrenBarn wrote: post #107

If an executive order can put grants under political control, they were already under political control. We just didn't know it. That is the case with so much of what is happening now. If these things are possible, the system was already broken.

If it's government funded it was indeed always under political control, just that some prior politicians chose to let it drift.

Having politicians exercise more direct control over this type of spending is good and as it should be. The concept of people taking money via force from other citizens yet answering to nobody is dystopian. The sort of people who support this idea are often, it seems, those who suspect their ideas and plans are so deeply unpopular that people could not be easily persuaded to fund them directly.

Re: New executive order puts all grants under political control

#188

Post by mathiaspoint »

ryandrake wrote: post #182
mathiaspoint wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may be that the Americans don't like what the USA has turned into and want it to end.

It looks like they're going to get their way, to everyone except the rich's detriment.

See I think part of the problem is people keep complaining about "the rich" and then propose and implement policies that go after normal middle class Americans instead. A few decades of this and you have a social norm that flat out doesn't work for normal people so they just start torching things.

Re: New executive order puts all grants under political control

#189

Post by ryandrake »

mathiaspoint wrote: post #188
ryandrake wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It looks like they're going to get their way, to everyone except the rich's detriment.

See I think part of the problem is people keep complaining about "the rich" and then propose and implement policies that go after normal middle class Americans instead. A few decades of this and you have a social norm that flat out doesn't work for normal people so they just start torching things.

Totally agree, except nobody is torching things yet. This administration's blatant attack on the middle class in favor of the rich should have people rioting.

Re: New executive order puts all grants under political control

#190

Post by exasperaited »

BrenBarn wrote: post #107

If an executive order can put grants under political control, they were already under political control. We just didn't know it. That is the case with so much of what is happening now. If these things are possible, the system was already broken.

All political systems, no matter how well-designed, function largely on the basis of norms. Norms are why the UK's political system is fundamentally stable; norms (like "loyal opposition") were what kept the US system stable. It is not possible to design a system that works when people don't act like they want it to.

It has always been my impression from a distance that Americans believe the federal system was perfectly designed and is inherently robust, when in fact there have been concerns from day one about what would happen if it fell into the hands of a leader who didn't care for the law.

And that's where you are now.

But re: the executive orders, actually it is not clear that they can do this. As with many of Trump's EOs it may simply be illegal because -- newsflash -- Trump is a crook and he has no intention of following the law if it limits him.

This is a man who tried a coup and who has broad immunity for anything he does that even looks like governance, so why would he let a little thing like the law trouble him? It didn't bother him when he exported people to El Salvador without due process. It doesn't bother him that his "emergency" tariffs almost certainly lack a legal basis.

I don't think the good faith reasoning about the system being broken by design really matters: the USA is falling victim to an accelerated Hungary-style fascist restructuring.

Nixon looks like a boy scout by comparison.

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