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Leonardo Chiariglione – Co-founder of MPEG

leonardo.chiariglione.org

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Re: Leonardo Chiariglione – Co-founder of MPEG

#181
post #144
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From ZiffDavis article: > QuickTime 6 media player and QuickTime Broadcaster, a free application that aims to simplify using MPEG-4 in live video feeds over the Net. It was sweet to see “over the Net”…

I think video over Internet could be a huge business.

I remember when YouTube first appeared and my thought was "This is a really nice service. It's going to be a shame in a couple of years when it runs out of VC money and shuts down."

I also remember when they went through and re-encoded all of the videos so they could play on the original model iPhone.

Re: Leonardo Chiariglione – Co-founder of MPEG

#182
post #162
post #2

As someone who hasn't had any exposure to the human stories behind mpeg before, it feels to me like it's been a force for evil since long before 2020. Patents on h264, h265, and even mp3 have been holding the industry back for decades. Imagine what we might have if their iron grip on codecs was broken.

MPEG-7 includes a binary XML standard [0] which is quite useful IMHO in comparison to others (I think it is used in DVB Meta data streams). But beyond patents it is even hard to find open documentation of BIM. I think the group was technically quite competent in comparison with other standard groups, but the business models around it really turn me off. [0] https://mpeg.chiariglione.org/standards/mpeg-7/reference-sof…

Interesting. I've used EXI in a past project but I hadn't heard of BiM.

Re: Leonardo Chiariglione – Co-founder of MPEG

#183

There's nothing obscure about them. His comment immediately after describes exactly what happened: > Even before it has ceased to exists, the MPEG engine had run out of steam – technology- and business wise. The same obscure forces that have hijacked MPEG had kept it hostage to their interests impeding its technical development and keeping it locked to outmoded Intellectual Property licensing models delaying market a…

> and it happened under his watch.

More context for this: Chiariglione has been extremely vocal that FRAND patent royalties are entirely necessary for the development of video compression tools, and believes royalty-free standards outpacing the ones that cost money represents the end of innovation in video codecs.

To be clear, Chiariglione isn't opposed to royalty-free standards at all, he just wants them to be deliberately worse so that people who need better compression will pay independent researchers for it. His MPEG actually wound up trying to make such a standard: IVC. You've never heard of MPEG IVC because Samsung immediately claimed ownership over it and ISO patent policy does not allow MPEG to require notice of what specific patents to remove so long as the owner agrees to negotiate a license with a patent pool.

You might think at this point that Chiariglione is on the side of the patent owners, but he's actually not. In fact, it's specifically those patent owners that pushed him out of MPEG.

In the 90s, patent owners were making bank off MPEG-2 royalties, but having trouble monetizing anything newer. A patent pool never actually formed for H.263, and the one for MPEG-4 couldn't agree on a royalty free rate for Internet streaming[0]. H.264 practically is royalty free for online video, but that only happened because Google bought On2[1] and threatened to make YouTube exclusively serve VP8. The patent owners very much resent this state of affairs and successfully sabotaged efforts at MPEG to make dedicated royalty-free codecs.

The second and more pressing issue (to industry, not to us) is the fact that H.265 failed to form a single patent pool. There's actually three of them, thanks to skulduggery by Access Advance to force people to pay for the same patent license twice by promising a sweetheart licensing deal[2] to Samsung. I'm told H.266 is even more insane, mostly because Access Advance is forcing people to buy licenses in a package deal to cover up the fact that they own very little of H.266.

Chiariglione is only pro-patent-owner in the narrow sense that he believes research needs to be 'paid for'. His attempt to keep patent owners honest got him sidelined and marginalized in ISO, which is why he left. He's actually made his own standards organization, with blackjack and hookers^Wartificial intelligence. MPAI's patent policy actually requires companies agree to 'framework licenses' - i.e. promise to actually negotiate with MPAI's own patent pool specifically. No clue if they've actually shipped anything useful.

Meanwhile, the rest of the Internet video industry coalesced around Google and Xiph's AV1 proposal. They somehow manage to do without direct royalty payments for AV1, which to me indicates that this research didn't need to be 'paid for' after all. Though, the way Chiariglione talks about AV1, you'd think it's some kind of existential threat to video encoding...

[0] Practically speaking, this meant MPEG-4 ASP was predominantly used by pirates, as legit online video sites that worked in browsers were using Flash based players, and Flash only supported H.263 and VP6.

[1] The company that made VP3 (Theora) and VP6

[2] The idea is that Samsung and other firms are "net implementer" companies. They own some of H.265, but they need to license the rest of it from MPEG-LA. So Access Advance promised those companies a super-low rate on the patents they need if they all pulled out of MPEG-LA, and they make it up by overcharging everyone else, including making them pay extra if they'd already gotten licenses from MPEG-LA before the Access companies pulled out of it.

Re: Leonardo Chiariglione – Co-founder of MPEG

#185
post #2

As someone who hasn't had any exposure to the human stories behind mpeg before, it feels to me like it's been a force for evil since long before 2020. Patents on h264, h265, and even mp3 have been holding the industry back for decades. Imagine what we might have if their iron grip on codecs was broken.

Yeah, he ran an incubator for patent trolls for 30 years and now the patent trolls have eaten his face.

Re: Leonardo Chiariglione – Co-founder of MPEG

#186
post #2

As someone who hasn't had any exposure to the human stories behind mpeg before, it feels to me like it's been a force for evil since long before 2020. Patents on h264, h265, and even mp3 have been holding the industry back for decades. Imagine what we might have if their iron grip on codecs was broken.

Who would develop those codecs? A good video coding engineer costs about 100-300k USD a year. The really good ones even more. You need a lot of them. JVET has an attendance of about 350 such engineers each meeting (four times a year). Not to mention the computer clusters to run all the coding sims, thousands and thousands of CPUs are needed per research team. People who are outside the video coding industry do not un…

I'm not opposed to codecs having patents but Chiariglione set up a system where each codec has as many patent holders as possible and any one of those patent holders could hold the entire world hostage. They should have set up the patent pool and pricing before developing each codec and not allowed any techniques in the standard that aren't part of the pool.

Re: Leonardo Chiariglione – Co-founder of MPEG

#187
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I avoided a career in codecs after spending about a year in college learning about them. The patent minefield meant I couldn't meaningfully build incremental improvements on what existed, and the idea of dilligently dancing around existing patents and then releasing something which intentionally lacked state-of-the-art ideas wasn't compelling. Codec development is slow and expensive becuase you can't just release a n…

Well, a career in codec development means you'd have done it as a job, and so you'd have been angling for a job at the kind of places that enter into the patent pools and contribute to the standards.

More codec development work is done outside of patent-centric organizations by a significant margin. Just like any other domain technological/communication standard the most significant impetuous comes from the drive to make superior products.

Work inside patent driven development groups also suffers substantial complexity bloat because there is a huge incentive for each participant to get a patentable component into the standard in order to benefit from cross-licensing. Often these 'improvements' are insignificant or even a net loss (the cost of the bitstream to signal them on is greater than their improvement over any credible collection of material).

Re: Leonardo Chiariglione – Co-founder of MPEG

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, but this is not what I’d call “never got wide support”.

So you’d say that a format that most consumers couldn’t use (because only a few devices could play it) is “widely supported?”

There is a lot more audio codecs embedded in other things than there ever were personal music players, by orders of magnitude. Vorbis was ubiquitous in video games, for example.

Personal music players had the issue that they had to have MP3 due to market forces, so offering Vorbis didn't save them any money. There were also some design decisions in Vorbis that made it a little more annoying to support on some very limited hardware than MP3.

Re: Leonardo Chiariglione – Co-founder of MPEG

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Possibly, nothing. Codec development is slow and expensive. Free codecs only came along at all because Google decided to subsidize development but that became possible only 15 years or so after MPEG was born, and it's hardly a robust strategy. Plus free codecs were often built by acquiring companies that had previously been using IP licensing as a business model rather than from-scratch development.

This is the sort of project that should be developed and released via open source from academia. Audio and video codecs, document formats like PDF, are all foundational to computing and modern life from government to business, so there is a great incentive to make it all open, and free.

Incentives in academia as things are is ... uh. Not so awesome.

My expectation from experience when implementing something from a DSP paper is that the result will be unreproducable without contacting the authors for some undisclosed table of magic constants. After obtaining it, the results may match but only for the test images they reported results on. Results on anything else will be much worse.

Also it's normal for techniques from the literature to have computational/memory bandwidth costs two orders of magnitude greater than justified for even their (usually exaggerated) stated levels of performance.

And then their comparison points are almost always inevitably implemented so naively as to make the comparison useless.

It's always difficult because improvements in this domain (like many other engineering domains) are significantly about tradeoffs ... and tradeoffs are difficult to weigh in a pure research environment without the context of concrete applications. They're also difficult to weigh with implementation cleverness having such a big impact particularly since industry heavily drains academia of naturally skilled software engineers.

And as other comments have pointed out, academia is in some sense among the worst of the patent abusers. They'll often develop technology just far enough to lay patent mines around the field, but not far enough to produce something useful out of it. The risk that you spend the significant effort to turn a concept into something usable only to have some patent holder show up with a decade old patent to shake you down is a big incentive against investment.

Re: Leonardo Chiariglione – Co-founder of MPEG

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the time, the mocking was well deserved. I remember downloading trailers for moves over my dial-up connection. Took the entire night for 3 minutes of video. Can’t imagine paying $5k for that privilege. Today though, the mocking doesn’t make sense and is confusing. I haven’t ever owned a TV.

I downloaded episodes of South Park using eMule over dial-up. It took days.

Well back then there was a huge difference in the Internet experience between people at universities and other places with T1s and other fast connections, and everyone else on dial-up. There was a lot of full-length video downloading at universities by 2000. But even on dial-up I seem to remember realplayer and other UDP dumps being pretty popular around this time.
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