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Tesla must pay portion of $329M damages after fatal Autopilot crash, jury says

cnbc.com

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Re: Tesla must pay portion of $329M damages after fatal Autopilot crash, jury says

#181

Post by salawat »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #135
HWR_14 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm guessing that dissolving your LLC as a punishment would include the forfeiture of all the associated assets, not distributing them to shareholders.

> guessing that dissolving your LLC as a punishment would include the forfeiture of all the associated assets, not distributing them to shareholders This is just expropriation. Which is legally complicated. And raises questions around what the government should do with a bunch of seized assets and liabilities that may or may not be in a going condition, and whether some stakeholders should be reimbursed for their los…

>And raises questions around what the government should do with a bunch of seized assets and liabilities that may or may not be in a going condition, and whether some stakeholders should be reimbursed for their losses, for example employees owed pay, also do pensions count, and if so executive pensions as well,and look at that the discussion got technical and boring and nobody is listening anymore.

Bullshit they aren't listening. Executives get no payout. Whatever happened happened on their watch. Summary dismissal. Keeps the incentives aligned. Otherwise you're just incentivizing unlawful behavior behind the corporate veil. Pensions do count. Since we've got such a fucked up social safety net in the U.S. that doubles as a mandatory investment slush fund for our corporate overlords, stewardship of said retirement funds should obviously be escrowed until such time as a new more compliant set of execs can either be installed, or the assets can be unwound.

There is no point in leaving something in the hands of the provably reckless/malicious. Which is exactly what these type of people are (executives making decisions that are traceable to reasonably foreseeable loss of life) are.

I'm done with victim blaming when we've made a habit of building orphan mulching machines that we just happen to call corporations.

Re: Tesla must pay portion of $329M damages after fatal Autopilot crash, jury says

#182

Post by dzhiurgis »

m463 wrote: post #12
SilverElfin wrote: post #6

> While driving, McGee dropped his mobile phone that he was using and scrambled to pick it up. He said during the trial that he believed Enhanced Autopilot would brake if an obstacle was in the way. His Model S accelerated through an intersection at just over 60 miles per hour, hitting a nearby empty parked car and its owners, who were standing on the other side of their vehicle. Hard for me to see this as anything b…

The model s has terrible phone docks. Don't get me started on cupholders, I'll bet people have drink mishaps all the time that affect driving. I'm actually kind of serious about this - keeping people's stuff secure and organized is important in a moving car. I'm surprised the touchscreen controls and retiring of stalks aren't coming under more safetly scrutiny. With the new cars without a PRND stalk, how can you quic…

What Tesla touchscreen controls are crucial for driving? FWIW climate is quick little swipe, arguably easier than turning dial.

Re: Tesla must pay portion of $329M damages after fatal Autopilot crash, jury says

#183

Post by salawat »

guywithahat wrote: post #49
ajross wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As gets pointed out ad nauseum, the very first "cruise control" product in cars was in fact called "Auto-Pilot". Also real "autopilot" systems in aircraft (where the term of art comes from!) aren't remotely supervision-free. This is a fake argument (post hoc rationalization): It invents a meaning to a phrase that seems reasonable but that has never been rigorously applied ever, and demands that one speaker, and only…

It's also worth mentioning he would have been required to keep his hands on the wheel while using autopilot, or else it starts beeping at you and eventually disables the feature entirely. The system makes it very clear you're still in control, and it will permanently disable itself if it thinks you're not paying attention too many times (you get 5 strikes for your ownership duration).

>you get 5 strikes for your ownership duration).

It isn't ownership of the device disables things against you. That's licensing at best.

Re: Tesla must pay portion of $329M damages after fatal Autopilot crash, jury says

#184

Post by salawat »

lovehashbrowns wrote: post #97
bangaladore wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> feature called Autopilot functions as a true autopilot What's a "true autopilot"? In airplanes, autopilot systems traditionally keep heading, altitude, and speed, but pilots are still required to monitor and take over when necessary. It's not hands-off or fully autonomous. I would argue you are creating a definition of "autopilot" that most people do not agree with.

It can be called anything in an airplane because there the pilot has some level of training with the system and understands its limits. You don't get a pilot hopping on a 767 and flying a bunch of people around solely because Boeing used autopilot in a deceptive marketing ad, then getting the surprise of a lifetime when the autopilot doesn't avoid flying into a mountain. A car is another thing entirely because the ge…

>You don't get a pilot hopping on a 767 and flying a bunch of people around solely because Boeing used autopilot in a deceptive marketing ad, then getting the surprise of a lifetime when the autopilot doesn't avoid flying into a mountain.

...Um... You did get pilots hopping into a 737 MAX, getting training that barely mentioned an automated anti-stall and flight envelope management system called MCAS that eventually flew several planeloads of people into the ground. That was managements idea too, btw.

Re: Tesla must pay portion of $329M damages after fatal Autopilot crash, jury says

#185

Post by lotsofpulp »

MBCook wrote: post #152
lotsofpulp wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Autopilot is used when referring to a plane (until Tesla started using it as a name for their cruise control that can steer and keep distance). In the context of a plane, autopilot always meant automatic piloting at altitude, and everyone knew it was the human pilots that were taking off and landing the plane.

Did they? I think you may be overestimating how much average people know about autopilot systems.

Pilot is a relatively high status career. They are always shown taking off and landing in tv shows and movies. I would be surprised if people thought they just sit back and relax the entire time.

Re: Tesla must pay portion of $329M damages after fatal Autopilot crash, jury says

#186

Post by mike-cardwell »

> Tesla Model S in Autopilot mode allegedly came to a T-intersection and, failing to see that the roadway was ending, kept his foot on the accelerator

Autopilot requires you to have your foot on the accelerator? That seems weird to me.

Re: Tesla must pay portion of $329M damages after fatal Autopilot crash, jury says

#187

Post by mingus88 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #150
usefulcat wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The “LL” in LLC stands for Limited Liability. The whole point is to financially insulate the owner(s).

To be fair, I think they’re talking about seizing the LLC’s assets. Not the members’.

Which is why you see execs get golden parachutes for failing. The assets get transferred to private parties who walk away to repeat the exact behavior they were just rewarded for at another firm.

Re: Tesla must pay portion of $329M damages after fatal Autopilot crash, jury says

#188

Post by ivape »

Car travel is such a weird thing. The other day I was walking on the driver side of a wide street where cars were passing me by very fast. Most of us are usually an arms length away from passing cars when we do that, roughly an arms length away from being hit at 20+ mph, yet humans do this careful beam walking without flinching. It’s the American version of Indians riding the roof of a train. If you goto a third world country, they are even more acclimated to insanely dangerous traffic conditions (no traffic laws being followed, cars flying out from every angle). The whole thing is insanity yet everyone is just going along with it.

A life built around car commutes is the outcome of a poorly thought out society. It had such stupid repercussions like racial segregation and the absurdity that everyone gets their own house along with the vertical airspace on top of it (exceedingly selfish). Along with that, it’s dangerous as fuck.

Someone needs to suggest dropping the speed limit across the board in America. Unfortunately the MAGA people will straight boycott roads if we do that (unfortunately?). Most people I talk to in Texas will concede the highways are full of maniacs.

Re: Tesla must pay portion of $329M damages after fatal Autopilot crash, jury says

#189

Post by samrus »

bangaladore wrote: post #42
metabagel wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What matters is the definition which most people use. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44761341

I guess I don't understand how. > A navigation mechanism, as on an aircraft, that automatically maintains a preset course. Applies here. As far as I can tell the system did do exactly that. But the details of the actual event are unclear (I've heard parked car but also just hitting the back of another car?)

It didnt maintain the course. It kept going at a t intersection and ploughed into another car

Re: Tesla must pay portion of $329M damages after fatal Autopilot crash, jury says

#190

Post by earthnail »

ivape wrote: post #188

Car travel is such a weird thing. The other day I was walking on the driver side of a wide street where cars were passing me by very fast. Most of us are usually an arms length away from passing cars when we do that, roughly an arms length away from being hit at 20+ mph, yet humans do this careful beam walking without flinching. It’s the American version of Indians riding the roof of a train. If you goto a third worl…

And yet it works surprisingly well.

When I lived in London, people waiting for the tube were leas than an arm’s length away when it rushed in. Blew my mind. Eventually I got used to it and did the same.

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