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Rust running on every GPU

rust-gpu.github.io

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Re: Rust running on every GPU

#181

Post by pjmlp »

Ygg2 wrote: post #130
jpc0 wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hears an idea, Get Nvidia, AMD, Intel and whoever else you can get into a room. Get LLVMs boys into the same room. Compile LLVMIR directly into hardware instructions fed into the GPU, get them to open up. Having to target an API is part of the problem, get them to allow you to write Rust that directly compiles into the code that will run on the GPU, not something that becomes something else, that becomes spirv that c…

Hell will freeze over, then go into negative Kelvin temperatures before you see nVidia agreeing in earnest to do so. They make too much money on NOT GETTING COMMODITIZED. nVidia even changed CUDA to make API not compatible with interpreters. It's the same reason Safari is in such a sorry state. Why make web browser better, when it could cannibalize your app store?

By making Web browser "better" do you mean more ChromeOS like?

CUDA is great for Python as well.

Maybe Intel and AMD should actually produce something worthwhile using.

Re: Rust running on every GPU

#182

Post by pjmlp »

apitman wrote: post #167
dvtkrlbs wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean that will improve only with time though, No? Maintainers recently revived the rust-gpu and rust-cuda backends. I don't think even the maintainer would say this is ready for prime time. Another benefit is having able to run the same code (library aka crate) on the CPU and GPU. This would require really good optimization to be done on the GPU backend to have the full benefits but I definitely see the value propo…

Those red Xs represent libraries that only work on Nvidia GPUs and would represent a massive amount of work to re-implement in a cross-platform way, and you may never achieve the same performance either because of abstraction or because you can't match the engineering resources Nvidia has thrown at this the past decade. This is their moat. I think open source alternatives will come in time, but it's a lot.

Plus IDE integration, GPU graphical debugging with the same quality as Visual Studio debugging, polyglot ecosystem.

Re: Rust running on every GPU

#183

Post by rowanG077 »

vouwfietsman wrote: post #3

Certainly impressive that this is possible! However, for my use cases (running on arbitrary client hardware) I generally distrust any abstractions over the GPU api, as the entire point is to leverage the low level details of the gpu. Treating those details as a nuisance leads to bugs and performance loss, because each target is meaningfully different. To overcome this, a similar system should be brought forward by th…

So what do you use? CUDA abstracts over the GPU hardware, opencl does, vulkan does. I guess you can write raw PTX?

Re: Rust running on every GPU

#184

Post by dvtkrlbs »

apitman wrote: post #167
dvtkrlbs wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean that will improve only with time though, No? Maintainers recently revived the rust-gpu and rust-cuda backends. I don't think even the maintainer would say this is ready for prime time. Another benefit is having able to run the same code (library aka crate) on the CPU and GPU. This would require really good optimization to be done on the GPU backend to have the full benefits but I definitely see the value propo…

Those red Xs represent libraries that only work on Nvidia GPUs and would represent a massive amount of work to re-implement in a cross-platform way, and you may never achieve the same performance either because of abstraction or because you can't match the engineering resources Nvidia has thrown at this the past decade. This is their moat. I think open source alternatives will come in time, but it's a lot.

I don't see any of the Xs that would not possible to generate code for and expose compiler intrisincs for. You don't reinvent the wheel here you generate the NVVM bytecode and let Nvidia handle the rest.

Re: Rust running on every GPU

#185

Post by dvtkrlbs »

dvtkrlbs wrote: post #184
apitman wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those red Xs represent libraries that only work on Nvidia GPUs and would represent a massive amount of work to re-implement in a cross-platform way, and you may never achieve the same performance either because of abstraction or because you can't match the engineering resources Nvidia has thrown at this the past decade. This is their moat. I think open source alternatives will come in time, but it's a lot.

I don't see any of the Xs that would not possible to generate code for and expose compiler intrisincs for. You don't reinvent the wheel here you generate the NVVM bytecode and let Nvidia handle the rest.

Wait my browser scrolled to the wrong place. For libraries it is even easier to create or write bindings and like the status says several is already in progress.

Re: Rust running on every GPU

#186

Post by pawelmurias »

pjmlp wrote: post #181
Ygg2 wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hell will freeze over, then go into negative Kelvin temperatures before you see nVidia agreeing in earnest to do so. They make too much money on NOT GETTING COMMODITIZED. nVidia even changed CUDA to make API not compatible with interpreters. It's the same reason Safari is in such a sorry state. Why make web browser better, when it could cannibalize your app store?

By making Web browser "better" do you mean more ChromeOS like? CUDA is great for Python as well. Maybe Intel and AMD should actually produce something worthwhile using.

Better for running web apps.

Re: Rust running on every GPU

#187

Post by 15155 »

tormeh wrote: post #158

If you're like me you want to write code that runs on the GPU but you don't, because everything about programming GPUs is pain. That's the use-case I see for rust-gpu. Make CPU devs into GPU devs with an acceptable performance penalty. If you're already a GPU programmer and know cuda/vulkan/metal/dx inside out then something like this will not be interesting to you.

> cuda/vulkan/metal/dx inside out then something like this will not be interesting to you.

I'd much rather glue my inline PTX together with Rust than CUDA C++.

Re: Rust running on every GPU

#188

Post by mertcikla »

jpc0 wrote: post #126
LegNeato wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of us working on Rust + GPUs in various projects have discussed starting a GPU working group to explore some of these questions: https://gist.github.com/LegNeato/a1fb3e3a9795af05f22920709d9... Agreed, I don't think we'd ever pull in things like wgpu, but we might create APIs or traits wgpu could use to improve perf/safety/ergonomics/interoperability.

Hears an idea, Get Nvidia, AMD, Intel and whoever else you can get into a room. Get LLVMs boys into the same room. Compile LLVMIR directly into hardware instructions fed into the GPU, get them to open up. Having to target an API is part of the problem, get them to allow you to write Rust that directly compiles into the code that will run on the GPU, not something that becomes something else, that becomes spirv that c…

LLVM people have been at it for a while now, they got it working on Nvidia and AMD working on apple I believe: https://www.modular.com/

it baffles me that more people haven't heard about them. it's mighty impressive what they have achieved.

Re: Rust running on every GPU

#189

Post by LegNeato »

apitman wrote: post #166
LegNeato wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FYI, rust-cuda outputs nvvm so it can integrate with the existing cuda ecosystem. We aren't suggesting rewriting everything in Rust. Check the repo for crates that allow using existing stuff like cudnn and cuBLAS.

Do you have a link? I went to the rust GPU repo and didn't see anything. I have an academic pipeline that currently heavily tied to CUDA because we need nvCOMP. Eventually we hope us or someone else makes an open source gzip library for GPUs. Until then it would at least be nice if we could implement our other pipeline stages in something more open.

https://github.com/Rust-GPU/Rust-CUDA/tree/main/crates/cudnn and the parent dir has more.

Re: Rust running on every GPU

#190

Post by LegNeato »

tucnak wrote: post #179
LegNeato wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks! I'm personally focused on compute, while other contributors are focused on graphics. I believe GPUs are the future of computing. I think the tooling, languages, and ecosystems of GPUs are very bad compared to CPUs. Partially because they are newer, partially because they are different, and partially because for some reason the expectations are so low. So I intend to upset the status quo.

Have you considered post-GPU accelerators? For large-scale machine learning, TPU's have won, basically. There are new vendors like Tenstorrent offering completely new (and much simpler) computing hardware. GPU's may as well live on borrowed time as far as compute is concerned.

Yes, see the proposed WG link I posted above. When I say GPU I'm using it as shorthand...indeed, I think the "graphics" part is on borrowed time and will just become fully software. It is already happening.
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