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My bank keeps on undermining anti-phishing education

moritz-mander.de

181–190 of 267 posts

Re: My bank keeps on undermining anti-phishing education

#181
My local Volksbank does basically the same, linking to https://www.wero-gewinnspiel.de/.

The site also uses a Let's Encrypt certificate, which seems strange. This appears to be a massive, coordinated and not very well-executed effort to promote this Wero service. My guess is that the sites were all build by the same advertising agency.

Re: My bank keeps on undermining anti-phishing education

#182
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The company we use for our yearly mandated training has a cybersecurity "class" which tells you not to click links in emails (which is good advice!). Three guesses on how you log in to the service.

> which tells you not to click links in emails (which is good advice!). Hardly. The company shouldn't have XSRF-vulnerable software, if your browser is vulnerable you have bigger problems and what you actually shouldn't do is enter your credentials or download stuff after clicking on that link. But of course there's an internal "phising test" that penalizes you for clicking on links... links that have been obfuscated…

> what you actually shouldn't do is enter your credentials or download stuff after clicking on that link.

Then why even click on it in the first place (and risk your email address getting flagged as active in some illicit database?)

Re: My bank keeps on undermining anti-phishing education

#183
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Per Chesterton's Fence, isn't this the right course of action for any individual who is unsure of why the practice was started? https://www.lesswrong.com/w/chesterton-s-fence

I like that fence, but I consider the best course of action to be going and finding out why the thing is done the eay it is, even if it necessitates careful investigation.

I'd wholeheartedly agree with your assessment of the best course of action. To the points raised in the conversation above: there is definitely too little understanding of the pattern and too much blind adherence to the pattern as a widespread institutional practice across many institutions.

Re: My bank keeps on undermining anti-phishing education

#184
Lol Chase always calls me.

"We'd like to confirm this wire. We just need some details."

"Okay, I am me, that's true. But I should probably call Chase back for this right? This is textbook scam stuff. What do I tell them to get to you as fast as possible."

"All right, sir. That's fine. Let me just make a note on the account. You should be able to find the phone number on the website"

And then I usually just find my way. It's funny, but you kind of have to be disciplined.

Re: My bank keeps on undermining anti-phishing education

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a really bad idea. That's letting anyone who phones you prove to the bank that they are you. You should only reveal an MFA code to someone that you have called, knowing that it is the right person.

Walk me through the chain you’re thinking of. I want to understand it better. If you’re thinking that - for example - someone is attempting to log into my account online and simultaneously call me pretending to be the bank. They are presented with an MFA check and tell me they initiated it. I give it to them unwittingly, and note they are in. My understanding is that isn’t possible here, because this “MFA check” is d…

Well, if I wanted to get into your account, apparently I just call the bank and then call you. Any time they ask me something I ask you the same thing and pass it along to them, and you'll faithfully tell me. They trigger the codegen and ask me to read it back and I ask you and you happily tell me. Then I "confirm your account is safe" to you, and continue my call with the bank except now I've authenticated as you.

Re: My bank keeps on undermining anti-phishing education

#186
post #78

My bank replaced their phone authentication with something that asks you to speak a phrase (the same one every time) and tries to recognise your voice. Luckily that's completely bulletproof, there's no way it can be forged :-/

I read the FAQ on mine and it assures me it is totally safe and the voice cannot be forged. This mechanism was defeated in a hacker movie from the early 90s using a tape recorder but is actually being pushed as state of the art. I can't imagine how this method could ever be safe, even if it were possible to use some kind of advanced detection which would fail any time I had a cold my voice can be recorded and played back in high fidelity!

Re: My bank keeps on undermining anti-phishing education

#188
post #4

User facing tech and marketing practices at banks are the worst. Every Indian bank login form I've ever had to use is - hostile to password managers. - You cannot copy paste passwords. - Client side password hashing - Stupid requirements like the password cannot have more than 15 characters and even have a whitelist of character sets! (Looking at you HDFC) - And of course, run of the mill spam They are all stuck in t…

Yeah my bank requires me to reset my password every 180 days, only accepts passwords from 6 to 11 characters, and has a whitelist of valid characters. All this leads to a situation where I want to sign in, I'm then prompted to reset my password, but the autogenerated passwords from Firefox don't actually work because they are too good, so I switch to a terminal to make up a custom password to their rediculus requirements.

Re: My bank keeps on undermining anti-phishing education

#189
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> cannot have more than 15 characters That's something! My bank insists on exactly 6 numbers. Not characters, numbers. They're also hostile to password managers and don't allow copy/paste. You have to click on the numbers with your mouse. "My security" is very important to them, so they've moved 2nd factor from a physical fob, to an app tied to my phone, and now they've improved it further by switching to sms! Now, t…

As I understand it, the thing with "click the number" codes is that it is a protection against keyloggers. The numbers are usually scrambled and when you click on it, you don't send the code but the position of the numbers you clicked. So for someone to get your code, you need both a screen capture and the position of mouse clicks. So 6 digits is low entropy, but it is compensated by a few layers of security. I don't…

Yup, keylogger defense. I've seen a system with a full virtual keyboard to let you type anything without hitting a key--explicitly as a security measure. Fixed keyboard, though, I've never seen one with randomized targets. Capturing everything would be an awful lot of data for malware to export so I don't think screen capture is much of a risk.

Re: My bank keeps on undermining anti-phishing education

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it's not. Did you ever think that you can hash something twice? Hash it once on the client, then hash and salt it server side, like normal. It means that the server never actually knows your password, but that's about all it gives you.

> It means that the server never actually knows your password If the client is hashing it without a salt the server could simply check a Rainbow table ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_table ) to know which password it is. For short inputs this could be trivial.

Sure, but I still think this is preferable to sending the password in clear text even over HTTPS. You're trusting the server doesn't do anything with the password and immediately hashes it, but it might not. It might store it, or even if it doesn't, your password will stick around in RAM for an indeterminate amount of time.

If the server is compromised in any way, passwords could be exfiltrated. Companies are, sometimes, wildly incompetent. Zoom historically stored private keys on the same server as their "encrypted" data. I would not be surprised if your password is just stored for "convenience" or some other bullshit reason and just waiting to be breached.

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