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Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

open-web-advocacy.org

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Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#181

Post by jsnell »

scarface_74 wrote: post #125
jsnell wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the argument is that as long as 3p browsers are forced to be just thin WebKit wrappers, it's harder for them to compete against. Why even bother switching from the default when it's going to be the same slop with a different brand?

Most people don’t care about the web engine. The ones who use Chrome now on Android care about bookmarks syncing, Google passwords, etc.

How about you let the browser makers decide whether they need to have their own engine to compete?

The fact is that Apple makes tens of billions in pure profit from Safari, and by closing off one of the principal ways of browser differentiation have ensured that they don't even need to invest in Safari. They can just lean back, safe in the knowledge that there is no risk of disruption.

(Like, the main selling point of Firefox on Android is support for browser extensions, and they're only able to do that thanks to having their own browser engine rather than using the platform-provided one.)

You never know where exactly the next steps in browser innovation are going to come from, but it is virtually guaranteed that they won't be just in the UI chrome. If you're e.g. going to make the best agentic AI browser in the world, it's not going to happen by reskinning Safari, and as a corollary Apple doesn't need to worry about competing with such a browser.

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#182

Post by gjsman-1000 »

hshdhdhj4444 wrote: post #180
gjsman-1000 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this is why the EU's GDP versus the US is now only 65% and shrinking. The regulations are about beating US companies into compliance, sometimes with righteous motives; but there's no forethought on how a domestic EU startup might be able to comply, or how a startup would convince investors to take the gamble.

Yeah, because EU software companies were totally destroying the American software industry before the last decade… The EU’s relatively shrinking GDP has much more to do with their populations growing older and their population size stabilizing, and the relatively tiny amount of migration, than EU digital laws, most of which have been replicated throughout the world. Additionally, the EU has always had weak financial…

That's not necessarily true; as the EU had many major players, especially historically: SUSE, Ericsson, Nokia, SAP; all were or are being shredded by US competition despite a domestically entrenched position. Even in 2008, when both economies did badly, the EU and the US had nearly identical GDP figures.

The EU might point to ASML as a point of pride; but that assumes an ASML competitor wouldn't get tens of billions to compete the moment ASML is inconvenient.

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#183

Post by simondotau »

v5v3 wrote: post #2

That you for your ongoing work Open Web Advocacy.

The open web requires browser diversity in order to remain healthy, far more than it needs individuals to have browser choice. The former is important for the health of open standards; the latter only matters if you believe the web is whatever Google implements in Chrome.

Without healthy browser diversity, the web might as well be renamed the Chrome Protocol and the "browser choice" you care about so much is gone.

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#184

Post by dns_snek »

stockresearcher wrote: post #103

Even if you get past the roadblocks Apple has put in place, it’s not beer and skittles for browser makers in the EU. The CRA, which is now in effect, lists browsers as class I important products. Technical documentation, design documentation, user documentation, security conformance testing, a declared support period at the time of download, software bill of materials, the legal obligation to respond to and make all…

As usual this is a panicked overreaction. No, startups won't be fined out of existence by the iron fist of regulators who despise innovation.

> (93) In relation to microenterprises and small enterprises, in order to ensure proportionality, it is appropriate to alleviate administrative costs without affecting the level of cybersecurity protection [...] It is therefore appropriate for the Commission to establish a simplified technical documentation form targeted at the needs of microenterprises and small enterprises. [...] In doing so, the form would contribute to alleviating the administrative compliance burden by providing the enterprises concerned with legal certainty about the extent and detail of information to be provided. [...]

> (96) In order to ensure proportionality, conformity assessment bodies, when setting the fees for conformity assessment procedures, should take into account the specific interests and needs of microenterprises and small and medium-sized enterprises, including start-ups. In particular, conformity assessment bodies should apply the relevant examination procedure and tests provided for in this Regulation only where appropriate and following a risk-based approach

> (97) The objectives of regulatory sandboxes should be to foster innovation and competitiveness for businesses by establishing controlled testing environments before the placing on the market of products with digital elements. Regulatory sandboxes should contribute to improve legal certainty for all actors that fall within the scope of this Regulation and facilitate and accelerate access to the Union market for products with digital elements, in particular when provided by microenterprises and small enterprises, including start-ups.

> (118) [...] specify the simplified documentation form targeted at the needs of microenterprises and small enterprises, and decide on corrective or restrictive measures at Union level in exceptional circumstances which justify an immediate intervention [...]

> (120) [...] When deciding on the amount of the administrative fine in each individual case, all relevant circumstances of the specific situation should be taken into account [...], including whether the manufacturer is a microenterprise or a small or medium-sized enterprise, including a start-up [...]. Given that administrative fines do not apply to microenterprises or small enterprises for a failure to meet the 24-hour deadline for the early warning notification of actively exploited vulnerabilities or severe incidents having an impact on the security of the product with digital elements, nor to open-source software stewards for any infringement of this Regulation, and subject to the principle that penalties should be effective, proportionate and dissuasive, Member States should not impose other kinds of penalties with pecuniary character on those entities.

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#185

Post by 93po »

p0w3n3d wrote: post #166

First of all. We must not agree that all the market will be taken by one engine (i.e. Chromium) Sadly there's no incentive for this, of course we have Firefox (still, right?) but it may perish because of underfunding for example. We used to have opera, IE, those engines are lost. So what I think about the EU directive is that it basically allows one company (Google) take over the whole market. Because what we have to…

i think it's unlikely firefox would perish. there are endless open source forks of major browsers, including FF, and even of mozilla themselves fell apart over night, people would continue to maintain.

FF's real threat, as open source software, is either:

1. further capture of mozilla and intentional degradation by google to the point of obscurity

2. organizational implosion followed by google deliberating requiring changes to web standards that break firefox in a way that open source contributions struggle to keep up with

3. a paradigm shift in how we use the internet (i.e. people transition to interacting with AI 98% of the time)

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#186

Post by FirmwareBurner »

hshdhdhj4444 wrote: post #180
gjsman-1000 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this is why the EU's GDP versus the US is now only 65% and shrinking. The regulations are about beating US companies into compliance, sometimes with righteous motives; but there's no forethought on how a domestic EU startup might be able to comply, or how a startup would convince investors to take the gamble.

Yeah, because EU software companies were totally destroying the American software industry before the last decade… The EU’s relatively shrinking GDP has much more to do with their populations growing older and their population size stabilizing, and the relatively tiny amount of migration, than EU digital laws, most of which have been replicated throughout the world. Additionally, the EU has always had weak financial…

>The EU’s relatively shrinking GDP has much more to do with their populations growing older

I'm not buying this argument. Same how the US's economy isn't stronger because Americans have more kids because we're not talking about agrarian civilizations here where every pair of hands on the farm ads proportional labor output. In service based economies, a smart person with a wealthy VC behind him can generate the GDP growth of tens of thousands of traditional labor jobs so population growth isn't the bottleneck.

EU economy is weak not because of lack of more kids, but because they have not captured any high growth industries (specifically tech) to generate better jobs and new wealth for future generations of youth. Europe is all old wealth and in the hands of old people. Once the economy becomes a fixed pie with no growth, population growth follows suit. EU economy is weak because after 2008 they went the route of austerity while the US printed it's way out dumping cheap money on fueling economic growth.

If Europeans would hypothetically start having way more kids tomorrow, those kids would end up being even poorer having to share the same fixed pie of limited economic resources. Another argument why more kids != wealthier for Europeans, is a news I read today of another local university graduate who moved his start-up to the US, so what's the point in making more kids if they have no funds to increase the GPD here and they leave? More kids with no comparable growth in money = those kids competing with India or Bangladesh.

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#187

Post by fuckdangsasshol »

idonotknowwhy wrote: post #71
stavros wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but approximately zero people have ever said "this website doesn't work on Firefox, so I won't use this website". They say "this website doesn't work on Firefox, so I won't use Firefox".

Zero percent maybe. I personally changed banks when they broke Firefox support and said to use chrome. I welcome the Safari walled garden because if Apple have to allow chrome on ios, that's the end of any cross browser testing (and the end of Firefox)

[dead]

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#188

Post by JustExAWS »

jsnell wrote: post #181
scarface_74 wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people don’t care about the web engine. The ones who use Chrome now on Android care about bookmarks syncing, Google passwords, etc.

How about you let the browser makers decide whether they need to have their own engine to compete? The fact is that Apple makes tens of billions in pure profit from Safari, and by closing off one of the principal ways of browser differentiation have ensured that they don't even need to invest in Safari. They can just lean back, safe in the knowledge that there is no risk of disruption. (Like, the main selling point o…

Yes because of all the great browser innovation on Android there are a plethora of great web apps on Android and companies are taking advantage of it so they can make one app that serves computer users over the web and Android users?

And Safari has had real browser extensions for years on iOS.

Where is the browser “innovation” on Android - the platform with 70% market share?

Last I checked, Firefox isn’t doing to well on Android either…

Firefox’s market share on mobile is 0.53%.

https://gs.statcounter.com/browser-market-share/mobile/world...

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#189

Post by jmm5 »

mrkstu wrote: post #174
technimad wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a user I don’t get why Apple allows this user hostile behavior in an app they distribute in their app store.The platform has alternatives. iOS has a sharing sheet. iOS has a default browser setting (in EU).

You have to download Google Maps in the first place- my (older teen and adult) kids don’t even have an entry point for Google, they just use Apple’s built in apps + ChatGPT.

Even Google Search relentlessly nags you to download the Google Search app.

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#190

Post by v5v3 »

Tepix wrote: post #3
v5v3 wrote: post #2

That you for your ongoing work Open Web Advocacy.

Yes, Thank you! Someone has to do it, Apple is clearly dragging their feet as much as possible.

Just so you know, my post thanking you has 15 upvotes at present.

So 16 people are thanking you together.

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