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Local-first software (2019)

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Re: Local-first software (2019)

#181

Post by swsieber »

davepeck wrote: post #10

In theory, I love the local-first mode of building. It aligns well with “small tech” philosophy where privacy and data ownership are fundamental. In practice, it’s hard! You’re effectively responsible for building a sync engine, handling conflict resolution, managing schema migration, etc. This said, tools for local-first software development seem to have improved in the past couple years. I keep my eye on jazz.tools…

I've been using instantdb in anger for the past month or so for a side project of mine. I'm building a personal budget app.

I should probably write a blog post, but I will say that I investigated power sync, electricSQL, livestore and powersync before. I briefly looked at jazz tools but wanted something a bit more structured.

I'm pretty impressed this far. I've actually been writing it with Vue and a community library. Permissions were a bit tricky, but once I figured it out it was simple. And I like their magic email login. And I like their dashboard/reply, but there are a few big changes I would make there to make it less fiddly.

I love that it's open source, and that if I want to, I could self host it.

As for the other options:

- jazz wasn't structured enough

- livestore came off as too fiddly with the event store, but it was appealing. That the dev tools are payealled was disappointing, but understandable

- electriSQL really only provided half a solution (read, not the write model

- couchDB / pouchDB wasn't structured enough for me, and I wanted better cross document support than was obvious / baked in.

- did not investigate zero really

Re: Local-first software (2019)

#182

Post by __MatrixMan__ »

GMoromisato wrote: post #24

Personally, I disagree with this approach. This is trying to solve a business problem (I can't trust cloud-providers) with a technical trade-off (avoid centralized architecture). The problems with closed-source software (lack of control, lack of reliability) were solved with a new business model: open source development, which came with new licenses and new ways of getting revenue (maintenance contracts instead of li…

Is it trying to solve a business problem? I think it's trying to solve a more general problem which has nothing to do with business.

It's ok to just solve the problem and let the businesses fail. Predation is healthy for the herd. Capitalism finds a way, we don't have to protect it.

Re: Local-first software (2019)

#183

Post by goopypoop »

bboygravity wrote: post #26
api wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire thing is because of subscription revenue. It’s self reinforcing because those companies that get subscription revenue have both more revenue and higher valuations enabling more fund raising, causing them to beat out companies that do not follow this model. This is why local first software died.

The root cause of the problem is that it's easier to make personalized stuff with server/backend (?cloud?) than without maybe? Example: I made a firefox extension that automatically fills forms using LLM. It's fully offline (except OPTIONALLY) the LLM part, optionally because it also supports Ollama locally. Now the issue is that it's way too hard for most people to use: find the LLM to run, acquire it somehow (pay t…

I don't think having to manually sync preferences (or set up an unnecessary LLM) is really "the root cause" of "why local first software died".

Re: Local-first software (2019)

#184

Post by HappMacDonald »

mumbisChungo wrote: post #55
GMoromisato wrote: post #24

Personally, I disagree with this approach. This is trying to solve a business problem (I can't trust cloud-providers) with a technical trade-off (avoid centralized architecture). The problems with closed-source software (lack of control, lack of reliability) were solved with a new business model: open source development, which came with new licenses and new ways of getting revenue (maintenance contracts instead of li…

A good contract can help you to seek some restitution if wrongdoing is done and you become aware of it and you can prove it. It won't mechanically prevent the wrongdoing from happening.

It can also help to align the incentives of multiple parties to actually care about the same goals.

"Mechanically preventing wrongdoing from happening" can be a bit of a Shangri-La. What Tech can mechanically do is increase the cost of wrongdoing, or temporarily deflect attempts towards easier targets. But that by definition cannot "solve the problem for everyone" as there will always be a lowest hanging fruit remaining somewhere.

What contracts can do is help to reduce the demand for wrongdoing.

Re: Local-first software (2019)

#186

Post by neilv »

Skimming the article, it seems to touch on a lot of the right points, but the motivating first paragraph seems weak:

> Cloud apps like Google Docs and Trello are popular because they enable real-time collaboration with colleagues, and they make it easy for us to access our work from all of our devices. However, by centralizing data storage on servers, cloud apps also take away ownership and agency from users. If a service shuts down, the software stops functioning, and data created with that software is lost.

"Apple pie might be tasty and nutritious and exactly what you want, but, theoretically, apple pie could burst into flames someday, and take your favorite pie-eating bib with it.

Re: Local-first software (2019)

#187

Post by aspenmayer »

gerdesj wrote: post #176
aspenmayer wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s also important to remember to accidentally a word here and there!

... invent is the word you seem to have missed out. Hallucinations present rather than hide. A person will misspell a word or put in some sort of rubbish. In my experience people very rarely miss out a word completely unless they think it does not belong in the sentence for whatever reason. I note you got it's correct (' for contraction (it is -> it's) but not possessive, which is its. Normally, possession is indicat…

That whooshing sound you seemingly don’t hear is the joke passing over your head.

https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/i-accidentally

Re: Local-first software (2019)

#188

Post by HappMacDonald »

sirjaz wrote: post #178
2color wrote: post #80

It's a very exciting moment for this movement. A lot of the research and tech for local-first is nearing the point that it's mature, efficient, and packaged into well designed APIs. Moreover, local-first —at least in theory— enables less infrastructure, which could reignite new indie open source software with less vendor lock-in. However, despite all my excitement about embracing these ideas in the pursuit of better…

We need to get back to apps rather than webapps. The hardware compatibility issues of the past are basically no longer here, and there are three major OS types two of which can use each other's apps.

Perhaps, but then how will they be authored? In what language and with what GUI toolkit?

I view everyone flocking around Electron as proof of a failure on this front.

Re: Local-first software (2019)

#189

Post by MajesticHobo2 »

maxhille wrote: post #92
DataDaoDe wrote: post #29

Yes a thousand percent! I'm working on this too. I'm sick of everyone trying to come up with a use case to get all my data in everyone's cloud so I have to pay a subscription fee to just make things work. I'm working on a fitness tracking app right now that will use the sublime model - just buy it, get updates for X years, sync with all your devices and use it forever. If you want updates after X years buy the newest…

How do you plan to do the syncing without some sort of cloud infrastructure?

You can use FTP and SVN.
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