Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore • Hacker News Board

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#181

Post by r0ze-at-hn » Tue, Jul 08, 2025, 1:16 AM UTC

b800h wrote: post #95

fransje26 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the moment, your comment is being heavily down-voted for what seems to be a totally reasonable point of view. In recent years we've went from "completely primitive and segregated Neanderthals", to "oh, we share quite a bit of DNA with the Neanderthals", and "the Neanderthals engaged in complex symbolic thought", as well as "the Neanderthals were pretty advanced artists". The current article is a further demonstrat…

What are the chances that we discover that in some ways they were more advanced than early homo sapiens (I'm not saying "us" here, as I have a lot of Neanderthal DNA)?

100% they were more advanced than early homosapiens. In fact I will argue that they are what made humans human. I went digging through their dna last year and Altai, Vi3315, and Vi3319 have the CYP21A2 rs6467 (C;T) variant

Their DNA is up online, but you can also see these variants here: https://academic.oup.com/humrep/article/36/3/734/6071469

They were highly inbred and they were carriers for this form of Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia (CAH) due to 21-Hydroxylase Deficiency. Even in its nonclassic form, this would have contributed to the low population numbers as any classic form would have been non-viable as well as resulted in evolutionary pressure to select for the genetic variants to compensate for the altered HPA-Axis. Neanderthals are most known for contributing to human specific DNA sets such as improved immune system, but if you go digging you will notice the larger pattern.

NCAH specifically results in higher neurogenesis. They were smarter. They also now had a bigger glucose preference and started to shift calories to grain. At some point between 130-70KYA there was enough excess calories from grain to not need to eat the dead. (see their teeth between this time) Admixture with modern humans occurs around 50-43KYA. These adaptations would have contributed to the loss of the mitochondrial DNA due to low female reproductive success compared to the higher male Neanderthal with female human success. The 2-4% that is found together is found together for a reason. They are incredibly valuable together.

This support for reduced HPA-Axis would have allowed for many other variants on the HPA axis and while not a single genetic variant, atypical HPA axis phenotype is associated with intelligence due to the enhancement in ability to detect unexpected events.

The glucose/grain preference with higher caloric density supported the higher population densities that occurred rapidly due to the Younger Dryas (last glacial period) and resulting agricultural and villages transition in Mesopotamia. These agricultural populations outcompeted other human groups while spreading the Neanderthal derived genetic variation.

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#182

Post by Nursie » Tue, Jul 08, 2025, 1:31 AM UTC

bee_rider wrote: post #88

Nursie wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting to think about, and yes, I would think it's more accurate to consider that homo (sapiens) neanderthalensis are part of what became us, and in that case it seems odd/wrong to talk about them being outcompeted when there was interbreeding and their descendents are still here. However they are still extinct! It reminds me of the historical narratives in the UK about Viking settlers. We were taught (in t…

It doesn’t seem that much of a coincidence that some of the history’s foremost boat-based pillagers and raiders were the descendants of Vikings, right?

Ha! I hadn't thought of it that way but you have a point :)

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#183

Post by timschmidt » Tue, Jul 08, 2025, 1:48 AM UTC

b800h wrote: post #150

timschmidt wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well they hard larger brains, more muscle mass, larger sinuses which aid in breathing in cold weather and possibly smell, denser bone structure, and a number of other possible advantages. It has been proposed that the advantage we wield which led to out-competing / interbreeding with them may have been a superior ability to starve - i.e. use fewer calories - during periods like the last ice age.

"Neanderthals appear to have matured faster physically but had a slower reproductive tempo overall, with longer spacing between births. That suggests fewer offspring over a female's reproductive lifetime." So my theory is that they could well have been more sophisticated in a lot of ways, but were just outbred.

Seems like that would go right along with using fewer calories. Very interesting.

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#184

Post by r0ze-at-hn » Tue, Jul 08, 2025, 1:51 AM UTC

r0ze-at-hn wrote: post #181

b800h wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are the chances that we discover that in some ways they were more advanced than early homo sapiens (I'm not saying "us" here, as I have a lot of Neanderthal DNA)?

100% they were more advanced than early homosapiens. In fact I will argue that they are what made humans human. I went digging through their dna last year and Altai, Vi3315, and Vi3319 have the CYP21A2 rs6467 (C;T) variant Their DNA is up online, but you can also see these variants here: https://academic.oup.com/humrep/article/36/3/734/6071469 They were highly inbred and they were carriers for this form of Congenital…

This is within the larger story of Homo Sapiens. Because CYP21A2 variants are much older and come from the primate tree there would have been continuous and separate adaptations on each branch. Homo Erectus improved language today and is associated with better estrogen signaling while Neanderthals went down the immune system and grain path. Denisovan which did interbreed with Neanderthals reporting the same rs6467 variant might have pursued another branch of selection pressure such as TAAR, and I highly suspect, but have not confirmed, kept or selected for longer AR promoter reducing AR signaling. The most famous of all is Denisovan introducing a Zinc deficiency variant which is such a good adaptation it is found in all non-african humans and notably can reduce ER signaling directly via BHMT. The combination of each adaptation increases the fecundity of atypical HPA axis individuals and the associated intelligence.

Because humans can develop a zona reticularis in their adrenals (unlike marmoset which has partially solved this with an adaptation) the way HPA axis variants interact with steroidogenesis influences sexual differentiation and reproduction in homo sapiens there is constant push and pull.

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#185

Post by poulsbohemian » Tue, Jul 08, 2025, 2:18 AM UTC

Youden wrote: post #22

jbotz wrote: post #6

When I first read this a question jumped out at me: Wait, Neanderthals were able to render fat? That requires boiling, and doesn't boiling require pottery? This led me down a bit of a rabbit-hole. It turns out that no, you don't need pottery to boil things, because you can do it just fine in combustible materials like animal hide or birch bark... so long as you keep the water level consistently high enough, because t…

In high school science class we boiled water using standard printer paper: fold a sheet into a box, put it on a stand over a bunsen burner, fill it with water, turn up the bunsen burner. Not only does it not burn but it retains more of its structural integrity.

I'm very confused how you make a watertight box with a sheet of standard printer paper - would seem like either it would very quickly be a wet mess, or you'd have to fold it so many times to have any durability that it would be too small to contain a meaningful amount of water.

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#186

Post by defrost » Tue, Jul 08, 2025, 2:26 AM UTC

poulsbohemian wrote: post #185

Youden wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In high school science class we boiled water using standard printer paper: fold a sheet into a box, put it on a stand over a bunsen burner, fill it with water, turn up the bunsen burner. Not only does it not burn but it retains more of its structural integrity.

I'm very confused how you make a watertight box with a sheet of standard printer paper - would seem like either it would very quickly be a wet mess, or you'd have to fold it so many times to have any durability that it would be too small to contain a meaningful amount of water.

Back in our school days, well before personal phones and all that, we'd often make folded paper water bombs,

eg: https://www.google.com/search?q=origami+water+bomb

returns maker videos, text instructions, etc.

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#187

Post by dineol » Tue, Jul 08, 2025, 2:53 AM UTC

defrost wrote: post #186

poulsbohemian wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm very confused how you make a watertight box with a sheet of standard printer paper - would seem like either it would very quickly be a wet mess, or you'd have to fold it so many times to have any durability that it would be too small to contain a meaningful amount of water.

Back in our school days, well before personal phones and all that, we'd often make folded paper water bombs, eg: https://www.google.com/search?q=origami+water+bomb returns maker videos, text instructions, etc.

paper water bombs worked very well!

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#188

Post by Arch485 » Tue, Jul 08, 2025, 3:40 AM UTC

qoez wrote: post #53

This is the first time in the wild I've seen an image credited to an artist that is clearly AI made (with some minor detail like smoke added to the foreground). You can tell it's AI by the details of the bone and piles of wood.

It looks to me more like bad Photoshop, not AI. Like a real photo with a bunch of elements comped in on top, like you'd see in historical edutainment content back in the 2010s or earlier.

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#189

Post by userbinator » Tue, Jul 08, 2025, 4:16 AM UTC

sumitkumar wrote: post #34

clarionbell wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the original paper: > experiments recently demonstrated that organic perishable containers, e.g., made out of deer skin or birch bark, placed directly on a fire, are capable of heating water sufficiently to process food, with the advantages of wet-cooking beginning at lower, sub-boiling temperatures than thus far acknowledged

Even thin single use plastic works. The first time I saw it it was surreal.

The thinner the better --- thermal conductivity is what keeps the temperature from rising too far.

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#190

Post by dismalaf » Tue, Jul 08, 2025, 5:10 AM UTC

b800h wrote: post #92

Youden wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In high school science class we boiled water using standard printer paper: fold a sheet into a box, put it on a stand over a bunsen burner, fill it with water, turn up the bunsen burner. Not only does it not burn but it retains more of its structural integrity.

When was this - are we saying that high school science teachers were aware of a fact that was not acknowledged by historians and anthropologists? Quite interesting!

It's not uncommon for experts in one domain to be completely clueless in other domains...