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Rolling the ladder up behind us

xeiaso.net

181–190 of 210 posts

Re: Rolling the ladder up behind us

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is "we"? A lot of "us" don't have the time to do programming as a hobby -- even if we started off that way. Many of "us" don't accept blanket grouping with privileged others who had thousands of opportunities to improve the general IT area but were too cool to do it and invented yet another LISP interpreter instead. And then they come to HN and use "we" as a big convenient scapegoat, obviously to escape responsib…

Hey same team. Earnestly asking: what should we do? I have some ideas but honestly they're so radical they feel like wild overreactions.

Wild overreactions is exactly what we need -- f.ex. the Linux kernel's gross negligence of security is no longer good enough is one thing that regularly comes to mind.

New geopolitics are in place, too. Our entire branch should do much, much better than they currently do.

One prediction: cybersecurity jobs might see some surge in the EU. Maybe.

In general though, I would work on transparently syncing world-wide database with partitions for personal data (photo galleries, contacts, calendars, media collections, game saves, anything at all) that is akin to, but much better than, torrents -- another very good example.

In general I am extremely mad at the privileged techies who just wrote philosophical essays about what "we" should be doing... while they themselves spent their riches on expensive (and likely sub-par quality) food in the restaurants of a certain coastal US city.

Re: Rolling the ladder up behind us

#182

The value of vibe coding isn't that it writes good or sustainable code. It's that you can build a sufficiently non-shitty prototype of a concept as a non IT expert to validate the use case and secure proper assistance. From a change leadership perspective, walking in the door with a shitty prototype beats pitching vaporware every day of the week and twice on Sundays. And the fact amateurs can deliver (basic, crappy)…

In terms of risk, building a prototype and getting a quick win really de-risks a project. Smart decision makers' world is a game of risk - they have tolerance in some areas, less tolerance in others. If you can materialize a quick win from a prototype, it's significantly less risky that sight-unseen work.

Coders often don't think in terms of a broad investment portfolio, but that's how I've seen good executives phrase things. AI makes it cheaper and easier to build that prototype - I've been loving it for my own projects, because of how quickly I can deliver that first software.

Re: Rolling the ladder up behind us

#183

This post is really all over the place and, I think, misses the main thing here: pretty much every advancement in automation across history has sacrificed some fidelity and craftsmanship. That's the cost of automation. Yet we have continually added more and more automation to our lives because the net value is dramatically higher for the bulk of our civilization. Yes, we lose (or pidgeon-hole) artisans and craftsmen.…

> pretty much every advancement in automation across history has sacrificed some fidelity and craftsmanship. That's the cost of automation

Can you help me think through how this looks when considering car manufacturing? Originally hand made cars were things of craftsmanship, but significantly lower quality and reliability than those produced with tiny tolerances on insane production lines. I'd take a modern car over a handmade one just about any day of the week.

Re: Rolling the ladder up behind us

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, as someone who considers themselves to be a "software craftsman," I have come to the conclusion that the work I do will never be valued, and will always be considered "too expensive." Since I work for free, that's not an issue for me, but that's economically unfeasible for most folks. The issue with an industry awash with cheap dross, is that it becomes prohibitively expensive to produce high Quality stuff. Any…

> It does mean that only "niche" craftsmen, like myself, will produce anything of decent Quality, but will be unable to do so at scale, because we can't get a team together, large enough to do big things. Why can't you get a team together? I dream of working on big and meaningful things ever since a teenager (and I'm 45 currently) but yeah, I can't afford doing it for free. I keep being a drone. But if somebody were…

> and pay me to do the big and meaningful things

Ay, there's the rub...

It is a lot more expensive to do high-Quality work, than it is to do shoddy (or, to be fair, barely acceptable) work. You need to hire more experienced (expensive) people, and then, you need to hire better managers, because you don't want the usual crap managers in charge of them.

And then, you need to pay for the time they take, "polishing the fenders."

Once you have an established brand, you can do these kinds of things, but it's pretty much impossible to start from scratch (without deep, patient pockets).

Re: Rolling the ladder up behind us

#185
History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme. Most of the discussion here seems to focus on the events of the past repeating themselves in almost the same manner, and ignoring the differences, which are substantial.

We're not talking about goods produced in bulk, but rather about a new intelligence that helps produce job shop type goods. That intelligence itself isn't a physical good though, and it can be copied freely and run elsewhere at almost no cost, and copyright won't save it. It's like toothpaste out of the tube once it's on the internet.

If we want to keep on track with the analogy to frame weaving machines, the difference is that capital and the availability of power were required to use those machines, which provided the moat required to protect profits.[Econ 101]

Models can be copied, and all of the investment in training used freely by anyone possessing a copy. This might have been how DeepSeek was trained, we'll never know. This is clearly different than in the case of weaving machines.

So instead of the cost of cloth, the cost of thought is going to drop considerably, and the quality of that artificial thought is (likely) at the lowest point it'll ever be. I can already run quantized versions of Deepseek on my CPU with 32 Gb of RAM. The future really doesn't seem to have an upper limit on what can be run locally.

With the ability to run models locally, the costs of running models will always have competition to lower prices. The other force is the capture of prompts and responses, whether covert or in the open, for other use, which must always be kept in mind.

The ability to build completely new things, will, I think, help to usher in a new era of innovation and allow anyone, anywhere, to start up companies to service the world.

[Econ 101] - In Economics 101, I learned that in a free and fair marketplace, it was impossible to maintain an outsized profit, because competition would always show up to take part of that profit.

Re: Rolling the ladder up behind us

#186

History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme. Most of the discussion here seems to focus on the events of the past repeating themselves in almost the same manner, and ignoring the differences, which are substantial. We're not talking about goods produced in bulk, but rather about a new intelligence that helps produce job shop type goods. That intelligence itself isn't a physical good though, and it can be copied…

> In Economics 101, I learned that in a free and fair marketplace, it was impossible to maintain an outsized profit, because competition would always show up to take part of that profit.

This is all "perfectly spherical cow" economic theory which does not apply in reality. Do we really have a free and fair marketplace? Where's the competition that's shown up and been able to get any kind of substantial piece of the outsized profit of Facebook, Apple, Microsoft, Google?

Re: Rolling the ladder up behind us

#187
post #186

History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme. Most of the discussion here seems to focus on the events of the past repeating themselves in almost the same manner, and ignoring the differences, which are substantial. We're not talking about goods produced in bulk, but rather about a new intelligence that helps produce job shop type goods. That intelligence itself isn't a physical good though, and it can be copied…

> In Economics 101, I learned that in a free and fair marketplace, it was impossible to maintain an outsized profit, because competition would always show up to take part of that profit. This is all "perfectly spherical cow" economic theory which does not apply in reality. Do we really have a free and fair marketplace? Where's the competition that's shown up and been able to get any kind of substantial piece of the o…

> In Economics 101, I learned that in a free and fair marketplace, it was impossible to maintain an outsized profit, because competition would always show up to take part of that profit.

What you should have learned is that in an idealized, perfectly rational, perfectly competitive market this is true, and you should have also learned that such markets do not exist in reality, not least of all because rational choice theory does not accurately model human behavior, but also because perfect competition is not an attainable condition.

Re: Rolling the ladder up behind us

#188
post #186

History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme. Most of the discussion here seems to focus on the events of the past repeating themselves in almost the same manner, and ignoring the differences, which are substantial. We're not talking about goods produced in bulk, but rather about a new intelligence that helps produce job shop type goods. That intelligence itself isn't a physical good though, and it can be copied…

> In Economics 101, I learned that in a free and fair marketplace, it was impossible to maintain an outsized profit, because competition would always show up to take part of that profit. This is all "perfectly spherical cow" economic theory which does not apply in reality. Do we really have a free and fair marketplace? Where's the competition that's shown up and been able to get any kind of substantial piece of the o…

Yes, many competitors show up, and are promptly purchased for quit a bit of cash and/or stock. Many of these purchases shouldn't make it past anti-monopoly laws, but the regulators are captured.

However, the oversized profits are a significant source of incentive for investment in alternatives. Kharma will catch up.

Re: Rolling the ladder up behind us

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It does mean that only "niche" craftsmen, like myself, will produce anything of decent Quality, but will be unable to do so at scale, because we can't get a team together, large enough to do big things. Why can't you get a team together? I dream of working on big and meaningful things ever since a teenager (and I'm 45 currently) but yeah, I can't afford doing it for free. I keep being a drone. But if somebody were…

> and pay me to do the big and meaningful things Ay, there's the rub... It is a lot more expensive to do high-Quality work, than it is to do shoddy (or, to be fair, barely acceptable) work. You need to hire more experienced (expensive) people, and then, you need to hire better managers, because you don't want the usual crap managers in charge of them. And then, you need to pay for the time they take, "polishing the f…

Well money is always the rub. And many people, once they become better off, become stingy and paranoid and don't want to reinvest -- which I completely understand, especially if they didn't have rich parents and trust fund(s) and had to grind their boots off to get where they are. If I ever make it I know I am absolutely joining that exact group. I owe the world nothing -- definitely not after decades of abuse and zero appreciation.

> it's pretty much impossible to start from scratch (without deep, patient pockets).

Well, I was not referring to myself here, FWIW. I ain't ever going below $10k a month (not to mention that for any meaningful life plans $18k - $25k a month is much more strategically desirable) but I was somewhat referring to many certain techies here on HN who (1) have the talents and tech skills and (2) are very well-off and could work for charity wages for 5+ years without a problem (think $3k - $5k a month).

I am just very sad that these people, who are in a 10x better position than I ever was for 23+ years of career, did not group up and did not create the next-gen lab experience, the likes of which we haven't seen since the days of UNIX. :/

As for the rest of the world, the owning class are quite fine with what they already have -- they know tech currently is not 100% reliable but they are never making 5x the investment for what they see as a 10% improvement (which is exactly the part where they are wrong -- but these people can't think beyond 2-3 quarters ahead anyway).

Re: Rolling the ladder up behind us

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> let those of us who wish to try anything other than boiling alive go do that Ok? Who is stopping you? Nobody here is prohibiting you from continuing to write code by hand and doing whatever you wish. Certainly if you're going to assert that that's criminal, of course I'm not interested in your vinegar.

Life would certainly be easier if we could all choose which things done by other people affect us and vice versa. Then we could have these simple "if you don't like it, leave" arguments hold water and air pollution wouldn't exist and herd immunity wouldn't be a thing and we wouldn't even need police.

There is a big gap between the other commenter's desire to write code by hand and air pollution.

Look, as a programmer I also love writing code by hand, however it's childish to suggest that if I can no longer make a living doing so because automated code production is more profitable that that's equivalent to boiling in a pot or suffering from air pollution.

There are substantiative risks with AI, such as a potential for a singularity, that would make for an actual compelling argument. Some engineer's desire to make a living writing code by hand does not. That's a luxury.

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